Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Winner of Who Do We Think You Are? 6 August 2009 is ...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Winner of Who Do We Think You Are? 6 August 2009 is ...

    Helen in Bucks


    Well done Helen. I hope you get a few brickwalls knocked down


    Use this thread to post your brick walls on.
    Barbara

  • #2
    WOW, thank you

    Really excited, will have a think about which of the (sadly) several brick walls I'd like most help with and will post details asap. Helen

    Comment


    • #3
      Helen, you can give us as many as you want! Give us one to start with but if we don't get far with that then post another.
      The week is yours - let's hope we can be of help!
      Elaine







      Comment


      • #4
        WDYTYA Brick Wall number 1 !!

        OK, here goes. Some of you may be familiar with this one from a post on GR a while ago, so I will include all the info I have:

        I am trying to find out more about my ggg-grandmother Mary Ann KELLOE (also known as SUMMERFIELD) born ca. 1844 in Dudley, Staffs (or sometimes listed as Worcs) and her mother, my gggg-grandmother Mary KELLO (yes, possibly the spelling changed!), born ca. 1819, also in Dudley.

        I have my gg-grandmother's birth cert (Mary Ann KELLOE / SUMMERFIELD's daughter):
        Birth certificate Harriet TYLER 1868
        GRO ref Dec qu 1869, Dudley, 6c 63
        ourth October 1868, Swan Village. Harriet, Girl, father James Tyler, mother Mary Ann Tyler formerly Summerfield, father's occupation brick moulder, the mark of Mary Ann Tyler, mother, Swan Village, Sedgley, registered 12th October 1868, R S Parker, Registrar.

        I have the marriage cert of my ggg-grandmother (Mary Ann KELLOE / SUMMERFIELD) and her husband James TYLER:
        Marriage certificate James Tyler and Mary Ann Kelloe 1868
        GRO ref Jun qu 1868, 6c 136
        12th April 1868, parish church, Sedgley. James Tyler, 20, bachelor, brickmaker, residence Swan Village, father Joseph Tyler, brickmaker. Mary Ann Kelloe, 20, spinster, residence Swan Village, father not named. Witnesses Seth Pugh and Richard Pugh.

        I have a marriage for Mary KELLO and Emanuel SUMMERFIELD, hence why Mary Ann KELLOE appears to also use the name SUMMERFIELD, about 9 years after Mary Ann's birth:
        Marriage certificate Emanuel Summerfield and Mary Kello 1853
        GRO ref Jun qu 1853, Dudley, 6c 110
        28th June 1853, parish church, Dudley. Emanuel Summerfield, full age, bachelor, nailer, residence Dudley, father Charles Summerfield, nailer. Mary Kello, full, spinster, residence Dudley, father James Kello, deceased, shoemaker. Witnesses John Cole and Jane Sherwood?

        I have Emanuel SUMMERFIELD, wife Mary and various children on the census in 1851:
        Class: HO107; Piece: 2032; Folio: 98; Page: 52; GSU roll: 87439.
        Dudley, St James. 170 Himley Road.
        and in 1861:
        Class: RG9; Piece: 2054; Folio: 81; Page: 41; GSU roll: 542910.
        Dudley. 198 Himley Road.

        So I am pretty sure that my Mary Ann SUMMERFIELD (mother of Harriet TYLER from Harriet's birth cert) and Mary Ann KELLOE (wife of James TYLER from their marriage cert) are one and the same.

        HOWEVER - here is the BRICK WALL - I cannot find a birth reference for Mary Ann SUMMERFIELD or KELLOE around 1844 in Dudley, or indeed anywhere. I cannot find any ref to a baptism for her or for her mother Mary KELLO. I think Mary KELLO's father was a James KELLO from her marriage cert but obviously she could have made him up. So I can't get any further back. I suspect they may not have been born in Dudley at all, Kello as a name crops up quite often in Scotland, and, I think, in Ireland, but I don't have access to these records, except for Scottish census on Ancestry.

        There are these births on freebmd:
        Births Mar 1844 (>99%)
        KELLEY Mary Ann Dudley 18 *
        Births Jun 1848 (>99%)
        Kelley Mary Ann Dudley 18 [35]45
        but I think I have found both of them as Kelley on the 1851 census so not mine!

        Hope this is the kind of puzzle that this is intended for!

        Many thanks in advance for any help. I won't be around much for the rest of this morning but will be back later!

        Helen

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Helen in Bucks View Post

          Births Mar 1844
          KELLEY Mary Ann Dudley 18 *
          You say that you think you have found this one in 1851.

          Are you referring to this entry?
          HO107; Piece: 2029; Folio: 631; Page: 37 - - Ancestry.co.uk
          Although they are living in the Dudley registration district her place of birth is given as Walsall, which would mean the registration should come under the Walsall registration district - there is an entry on freeBMD for a Mary Kelley, Mar 1844, Walsall which might be her.

          Have you tried querying that birth registration with the local Register Office, rather than ordering the certificate from the GRO. Although I don't use the local ROs myself I understand that they are very helpful and might do a checking reference on the mother being Mary - from what others say they don't charge anything if they don't supply the certificate (unlike the GRO charges for a checking reference).
          Elaine







          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Elaine, I think this Mary Kelley, Mar 1844 Walsall, is a different one, I think I have found her in 1851 Class: HO107; Piece: 2029; Folio: 631; Page: 37; GSU roll: 87435-87436, father Bernard and again in 1861 Class: RG9; Piece: 2044; Folio: 18; Page: 27; GSU roll: 542908.
            Also, although I know the name may have been misrecorded or mistranscribed, I'm still not convinced we'll find her as Kelley.

            My notes for the 1851 / 1861 census for Emanuel Summerfield both have Mary Ann 1844 born in Dudley, so I will go back and re-check the images. Interestingly the 1851 seems to have her mother 1819 born in Cheltenham, Glos?, but by 1861 she says she is born in Dudley.

            Comment


            • #7
              Have you found a 1851 census entry which you think belongs to this birth registration?

              Births Mar 1844
              KELLEY Mary Ann Dudley 18 *
              Elaine







              Comment


              • #8
                Elaine, sorry, baby brain, I see what you mean now about Walsall / Dudley reg districts.

                So, these are the births showing up on freebmd for surname Kell* and first name Mary, in the right sort of area of Staffordshire, between Mar qu 1842 and Dec qu 1846:

                Births Mar 1844 (>99%)
                KELLEY Mary Walsall 17 * - this one looks like the daughter of Bernard as per Elaine's notes abocve Class: HO107; Piece: 2029; Folio: 631; Page: 37; GSU roll: 87435-87436.

                KELLEY Mary Ann Dudley 18 * - so this is a possible, which I had discounted as being the one on the census as per above, with father Bernard, but Elaine is right, a place of birth of Walsall would not give a reg district of Dudley - might have to bite the bullet and order this cert (or try the records office to see if they will check for me, haven't tried that before, but will give it a shot)

                Births Mar 1845 (>99%)
                KELLY Mary Wolverhampton 17 380

                Births Dec 1845 (99%)
                Kelly Mary Wolverhampton 17 273 - this one (or the one above) is probably on 1851 as daughter of Michael Class: HO107; Piece: 2019; Folio: 889; Page: 12; GSU roll: 87422-87423.

                Births Mar 1846 (>99%)
                Kelly Mary Wolverhampton 17 385 - OK - this one is probably on 1851 as Mary Kelly born Bilston (which is in Wolverhampton district) Class: HO107; Piece: 2021; Folio: 305; Page: 14; GSU roll: 87425-87426, so not mine!

                I'll have another trawl through the census, to make sure I haven't missed any.

                Helen
                Last edited by Helen in Bucks; 07-08-09, 13:52.

                Comment


                • #9
                  WDYTYA Brick Wall number 2!

                  Hi everyone

                  Here's another one that's had me pulling my hair out for a while.

                  I have my great-grandparents' marriage cert, 1902 Arthur POWELL and Rebecca NICHOLLS:
                  GRO ref Sep qu 1902, Dudley, 6c 129
                  14th September 1902. St Mary's Church in the Parish of Sedgley, Staffordshire. Arthur Powell, age 22, Bachelor, Labourer, residence Sedgley, father George Powell, Labourer. Rebecca Nicholls, age 23, Spinster, residence Upper Ettingshall, father Thomas Nicholls, Dresser. Witnesses George Powell and Emma Powell.

                  I have then found Rebecca NICHOLLS birth cert in 1878:
                  GRO ref Dec qu 1878, Dudley, 6c 104
                  Registration district Dudley, sub-district Sedgley. 14th November 1878 at 4 Paul Street, Sodom (note from genuki site Sodom is a hamlet adjoining Can Lane, one mile ENE of Sedgley), Rebecca Nicholls, girl. Father Thomas Nicholls, cast iron dresser. Mother Catherine Nicholls (formerly Raybould). Registered by mother (she made her mark) 27th December 1878. M Thompson, registrar.

                  I have the family on the census in 1891, Class: RG12; Piece: 2291; Folio 66; Page 31; GSU roll: 6097401.
                  Catherine Nicholls nee Raybould's age is given as 51 and place of birth as Sedgley, Staffordshire.

                  I think the same family are on the census in 1881, Class: RG11; Piece: 2873; Folio: 10; Page: 13; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341689. However father's name is William not Thomas, but everything else seems fine.
                  Catherine Nicholls nee Raybould's age is given as 41 and place of birth as Sedgley, Staffordshire.

                  In 1901, Class: RG13; Piece: 2743; Folio: 74; Page: 20, Catherine is a widow, age 60, place of birth Sedgley again.

                  I have seen a copy (from another relative) of the marriage cert between Thomas NICHOLLS and Catherine RAYBOULD in 1861.
                  GRO ref Sep qu 1861, Dudley 6c 2
                  Marriage solemnised at Christ Church in the Parish of Coseley in the County of Stafford. 4th August 1861. Thomas is recorded as 21 years, bachelor, occupation dresser. Residence Sodom. Thomas's father is Joseph Nicholls, Dresser. Catherine is 21 years old, spinster. Residence Deepfields. Father John Raybould, Brickmaker.

                  BRICK WALL TIME - I can find no trace of Catherine RAYBOULD before 1861 either in censuses or on freebmd (admittedly registration in 1840, her likely birth year, wasn't compulsory). I can't find any trace of a John RAYBOULD either. I've tried the IGI and all sorts of alternative spellings, but no luck, so where did she come from???

                  I think I have found her as RABOLD on the 1861 census in Deepfields, Sedgley with mother Sarah (widow) and siblings George and Richard. Class: RG9; Piece: 2050; Folio: 68; Page: 4; GSU roll: 542909. The Ancestry transcription has her as Sarah's aunt, but I've checked the image and it is daughter.

                  These are the only even remotely possible birth refs on freebmd:
                  Catharine Raybould, Dec qu 1839, Islington, 3 171
                  Catherine Raybould, Sep qu 1847, Bermondsey 4 20
                  Catharine Raybould, Sep qu 1850, Walsall 17 261

                  Now this is the bit where I was clearly doing this having just had a baby and therefore minus most of my brain cells ... in my notes I have a birth ref of Sep quarter 1841, Wolverhampton, 17 303 - I have absolutely no idea where this came from and haven't been able to find it since. I've looked up all births on this page in this quarter and nothing fits, so goodness knows where it came from.

                  Any help gratefully received!

                  Helen
                  Last edited by Helen in Bucks; 07-08-09, 14:44. Reason: changed 1891 to 1881, as clearly can't type!, also added 1861 census info.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    WDYTYA Brick Wall Number 3!

                    OK everyone, a slightly more recent one here, but may need some "specialist" help as it involves Germany ...

                    My husband's grand-parents were Maximilian Edward MILLER and Mary Wilder HYDE.

                    Their marriage cert in 1910:
                    GRO ref Jun qu 1910, Croydon, 2a 528
                    25th June 1910. All Saints Church, Upper Norwood, Croydon and Surrey. Maximilian Edward Miller, age 25, Bachelor, Fitter, residence 3 Howbery Road, Thornton Heath, father Otto Charles Miller, Surgical Instrument Maker. Mary Wilda (sic) Hyde, age 21, Spinster, residence 3 Howbery Road, Thornton Heath, father Water Hyde (deceased), Fireman. Winesses Charles Miller and Theresa Miller.

                    Maximilian Edward MILLER's birth cert in 1884:
                    GRO ref Dec qu 1884, Wandsworth, 1d 719
                    Registration District Wandsworth, Sub-district West Battersea, County Surrey. 3rd November 1884 at 12 Bullen Street, Maximilian Edward Miller, father Otto Miller, mother Therese Miller formerly Klumb. Father's occupation Surgical Instrument Maker. Registered by mother 16th December 1884. Registrar William Griffin.

                    His parent's marriage cert in 1874, Otto Charles MILLER and Theresa KLUMP (a "b" at the end of a word in German sounds a bit like a "p" and this is why I think it is sometimes KLUMB and sometimes KLUMP):
                    GRO ref Dec qu 1874, Westminster, 1a 779
                    Parish Church of St Ann, Westminster in the county of Middlesex. 28th December 1874. Otto Mueller, age 26, bachelor, surgical instrument maker. Theresa Klump, age 19, spinster. Both resident at 37 King Street. Groom's father Charles Mueller, tailor. Bride's father William Klump, farmer. Witnesses Charles Mueller and Emilie Beck.

                    I have Otto Charles MILLER on the 1871 census with his parents and siblings, Class: RG10; Piece: 147; Folio: 8; Page: 9; Civil Parish: St Anne Soho; Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne; County/Island: London
                    11 King Street. Charles Miller, Head, married, 53, tailor, born Saxony, Germany. Bertha Miller, Wife, married, 53, born Saxony, Germany. Odo (sic) Miller, Son, unmarried, 22, surgical instrument maker, born Saxony, Germany. Mary Miller, daughter, unmarried, 13, born Saxony, Germany. Charles Miller, son, 17, born Saxony, Germany. Adolphus Miller, son 16, bon Saxony, Germany. Bertha Miller, daughter 14, born Saxony, Germany, Anna Miller, daughter, 12, born Saxony, Germany. Oscar Buberscach ?, adopted child, 1.5, born Saxony, Germany.

                    Later censuses have Otto Charles MILLER's birth place as Jena (which is in Saxony, or Sachsen in German). The 1901 census has his birthplace (and his wife's) as Soho, i.e. in the UK, but this could be politically motivated.

                    I can't find any of the family in the UK in 1861, so assume they must have arrived some time between 1861 and 1871.

                    BRICK WALL #1 - when did the MILLER / MUELLER family arrive in the UK and is there any way of finding out more about Otto Charles's ancestors?

                    BRICK WALL #2 - where did Theresa (sometimes Therese) KLUMP or KLUMB come from, when did she arrive in UK and who are her ancestors?

                    Interestingly my husband's father, Otto and Theresa's grandson, ended up in a German POW camp in WW2 ...

                    Any ideas?

                    Helen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re the Raybould family.

                      What about this one from 1861
                      Catherine Rabold bc184o Sedgley
                      Gives her relationship to head of household as aunt, but if you look at image I think it is daughter- Mother is Sarah, widow.

                      RG9; Piece: 2050; Folio: 68; Page: 4 - - Ancestry.co.uk

                      ooh - and address is Deepfields!

                      Elaine







                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The details from the 1861 Rabold family is

                        Sarah Rabold c 1800 Bringwood, Herefordshire
                        Richard Rabold c1830 Dudley, Worcestershire -son - occ coalminer
                        George Rabold c1827 Dudley, Worcestershire - son - occ coalminer I think age is 24, therefore born 1837
                        Catherine Rabold c 1840 Sedgley, Staffordshire - aunt - I think it should be daughter
                        Ann Rabold c1860 Sedgley, Staffordshire -grandaughter

                        I keep getting drawn to this 1851 census as there is a good match on the children´s name - but I cannot find a Ball/Raybould connection at the moment!
                        Sarah Ball c 1799 Herefordshire, England Head
                        John Ball c 1826 Dudley, Worcestershire
                        William Ball c 1827 Dudley, Worcestershire
                        Richard Ball c 1829 Dudley, Worcestershire - occ coalminer
                        James Ball c 1832 Dudley, Worcestershire
                        George Ballc 1837 Rowley, Staffordshire - occ coalminer
                        Catherine Ball c 1840 Sedgley, Staffordshire

                        HO107; Piece: 2031; Folio: 105; Page: 4;
                        Elaine







                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Same family in 1841

                          HO107; Piece 998; Book: 2; Civil Parish: Sedgley; County: Staffordshire; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 4; Page: 3; Line: 16;

                          John
                          Ball, age 45 -occ brickmaker - wishful thinking maybe??
                          Sarah Ball 40
                          John Ball 15
                          Richard Ball 10
                          William Ball 13
                          Thomas Ball 9
                          George Ball 6
                          Catherine Ball 1
                          Sarah ??months
                          Elaine







                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There is a John Raybould / Sarah Mullett submitted marriage on the IGI
                            28 AUG 1825 Dudley, Worcester - which fits in with year of birth of children
                            ....but I just cannot see a BALL connection!
                            Elaine







                            Comment


                            • #15
                              thanks Elaine, I think you are right about the 1861 census, sorry I amended my post as realised I did have this, interesting about the Balls, I'll have a look at the images and see if there's any way it could be Rabold/Raybould - wonder if the enumerator misheard Raybold as Ball? just seems a bit unlikely that it would happen twice in consecutive censuses

                              I'll have another look at George's age and see if I can track him at that age later on in the census

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                WDYTYA Brick Wall Number 4

                                This might be a slightly easier one and all it may need is a fresh pair of eyes.

                                My gg-grandmother is Emma GEARS, married name JONES.
                                Marriage certificate 1876 gives father as John GEARS.
                                GRO ref Dec qu 1876, Atcham, 6a 1339
                                Parish church at Berrington. 3rd October 1876. Thomas Jones, full age, bachelor, labourer, resident in Berrington, father William Jones, labourer. Emma Gears, full age, spinster, resident in Berrington, father John Gears, labourer. Thomas Jones made mark, did not sign. Witnesses William Jones (signed) and Elizabeth Jones (made mark). Rector J N Noel-Hill.

                                I have her birth certificate, 1850.
                                GRO ref Jun qu 1850, Atcham, XVIII 8
                                7th May 1850, Wroxeter Lane, Berrington, Emma, girl, father John Gears, mother Anne Gears formerly Morris, father's occupation labourer, registered by father 9th May 1850.

                                On the 1841 census, John GEARS is unmarried and with his mother Martha and sister.

                                1851 census: Class: HO107; Piece: 1990; Folio: 116; Page: 12; GSU roll: 87391. Wroxeter Farm, Berrington / Brompton. John Gears, head, married, 41, ag labourer, born Atcham. Ann Gears, wife, married, 41, born Berrington. Marian (?) Gears, daughter, 3, born Berrington. Emma Gears, daughter, 10 months, born Berrington.

                                1861 census: Class: RG9; Piece: 1861; Folio: 82; Page: 12; GSU roll: 542879. 52 Berrington. John Gears, head, married, 49, ag labr, born Berrington. Ann Gears, wife, married, 49, laundress, born Berrington. Mary A Gears, daughter, 13, scholar, born Berrington. Emma Gears, daughter, 10, scholar, born Berrington. Mary A Reynolds, lodger, age 3, born Berrington.

                                1871 census: Class: RG10; Piece: 2760; Folio: 26; Page: 2; GSU roll: 835400. Watling Street Lane, Berrington. John Gears, head, married, 62, ag lab, born Berrington. Ann Gears, wife, married, 62, laundress, born Berrington. Mary Ann Gears, daughter, 23, laundress, born Berrington. Emma Gears, daughter, 20, laundress, born Berrington.

                                1881 census: Class: RG11; Piece: 2641; Folio: 21; Page: 2; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341635. 5 Brompton, Berrington. John Gears, Head, married, 71, ag lab, born Berrington. Ann Gears, wife, married, 71, laundress, born Berrington. Mary A Gears, daughter, unmarried, 33, laundress, born Berrington. Edward H Gears, grandson, 3, born Stockport. Thomas Jones, son in law, married, 31, general labourer, born Wroxeter. Emma Jones, daughter, married, 30, laundress, born Berrington. John Jones, grandson, 3, born Berrington, Emma Jones, granddaughter, 1, born Berrington and Thomas Jones, grandson, 2 months, born Berrington.

                                By the time of the 1891 census John GEARS is widowed and at the Berrington workhouse at Cross Houses.

                                BRICK WALL TIME - I cannot find a marriage for John GEARS and Anne MORRIS and therefore can get no further in finding Anne MORRIS and her ancestors.

                                The only sniff of a marriage ref I have found is:
                                Mar qu 1847, Atcham, 18 3, John Geeres and either Ann McGregor or Eliza Nicholls, nothing else on freebmd from 1837 onwards

                                So may be Ann McGregor was her married name and Ann Morris is her maiden name, but I've had no joy finding a Morris/McGregor marriage on freebmd or the IGI.

                                Over to you! Helen

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Re Mary Kelley, UKBMD has birth indexes online for Staff and West Midlands. Walsall comes under West Midlands. There isn't a birth for her under Walsall in 1844, only one in Sandwell/Oldbury, which doesn't come under Walsall registration district:

                                  Walsall Registration District

                                  I've checked the FreeBMD image, and it does look like Walsall.

                                  West Midlands Births Marriages & Deaths
                                  Staffordshire Births Marriages & Deaths

                                  If you find the birth you want on those sites, you can send off direct to the local Register Office for the cert. You may need to get your certs from the local office anyway. because some of the reference numbers on FreeBMD are incomplete.

                                  Just looked at the West Midlands site again, and it looks as though Walsall 1844 isn't indexed yet. However, Dudley's indexed from 1837 - 1985.

                                  West Midlands Births Marriages & Deaths - Coverage
                                  Last edited by Mary from Italy; 07-08-09, 20:13.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    For the German part of the family, you could try searching the National Archives and the Gazette to see if there was a naturalisation, but I don't think it was compulsory. Unless it says "British subject" alongside the name on the census they probably weren't naturalised.

                                    London Gazette Home Page
                                    The National Archives Quick Search

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Mary, thanks for both your tips. Helen

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Re Catherine RAYBOULD:

                                        Originally posted by Helen in Bucks View Post
                                        ... in my notes I have a birth ref of Sep quarter 1841, Wolverhampton, 17 303 - I have absolutely no idea where this came from and haven't been able to find it since. I've looked up all births on this page in this quarter and nothing fits, so goodness knows where it came from.

                                        This is the only Cath* in that quarter with the right reference number:

                                        Births Sep 1841
                                        Griffiths Catharine Wolverhampton 17 303

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X