Two Questions please

[St Demon 4]

1 If a soldier dies on a battlefield will FreeBMD records still have the required ref to him or will i have to get Army records?
2 My Grt Grandfather a James Iles born 1844 born Wandsworth was married to a Sarah Pratt ,i cannot find any reference to his death anywhere, in 1897 he gave away his eldest daughter on her marriage cert but on the 1901 census his wife is listed as the Head of the family at Sutton,it probably means his death is somewhere between 1897 and 1901 but i cannot find it ,would some kind member please advise where i coud go next

[garstonite]

James George Iles death Dec Qtr 1899 Lambeth 1d 375 aged 46....so born 1843 / 44...COULD THIS BE HIM ON FreeBMD Home Page ...ALLAN

[garstonite]

WAS YOUR jAMES
James Robert Iles b 1844 Jun Qtr Wandsworth 4 528 ...?,,,allan

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Is the wife listed as married in the 1901 or widowed?

The 1911 shows ILES JAMES b1847 64 Lewisham London

And freebmd also has a death record;
Deaths Dec 1899
---------------------

Iles James George 46 Lambeth 1d 375


Can you rule out either of these as your chap?

[St Demon 4]

Garstonite
It could be your ref id 375,and he was born James Robert Iles with the ref 4 page 528 as you have stated
Glen ,i don't think that the 1911 ref is correct as he was born in Wandsworth or to be correct Merton Surrey,although it could as Garstonite has said he could be referenced as James George although he was born James Robert ,the death seems about right i think,so i cannot at this time rule him out

[St Demon 4]

Garstonite
having looked at the ref 1d page 375 lambeth, there is is something wrong with his age, if he was born in 1844 and died 1899 he would have been 55 years old at his death with this ref. so cannot be sure.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

The 1911 result i gave simply says he is in Lewisham at the time of the census, there isn't anything in the 1911 index to indicate the place of birth.


What is on the 1901 image regarding the wife?

[JBee]

Remember that ages can be wrong on death certificates as often they're assumptions. I had a lady aged 52 on census and 3 years later on death certificate was 65?!!!

[St Demon 4]

Glen
I will get back to you,i'm looking for my copy of the 1901 census

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Reason i ask is because i no longer have access to the census.

Did James actually sign the marriage cert too? (you mention he gave his daughter away). He may just be recorded on the cert as father and not recorded as deceased even if he had passed some time before.

[St Demon 4]

Glen
I now have my copy of the 1901 census and on it ,it shows that although Sarah is listed as the Head ,under condition as to marriage it states M so could it be that James has moved on and was still alive somewhere ,you were right to when you queried this point,the other point you mentioned was did James actually sign the cert of his daughter Rose,it does not look like it only that the father was James

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Right then.

The 1901 says she is married, it's not definative proof he James was still alive but as you say James simply may have been elsewhere, (either temporarily or a more permanant basis). The same with the info on a cert, i have several where a father is recorded but no mention of him being deceased although i know he had died some time before the marriage took place. A lot depends how the questions are asked by census enumerators and registrars.

Unfortunately it means there are a few more scenarios to investigate for James.

If he died and was away from people who did know him well then the 1899 death could be him, and the age discrepancy be due to the informant not being aware of the details.

Equally the 1911 return at Lewisham could also be him, you would only really be able to tell by looking at the image but the 1911 is pay per view so it would mean buying credits. In an ideal world it would be him but if not the fact you can rule the Lwisham chap out would be useful.


If it were me i would go hunting down some death refs (preferably via the full index if you can as Freebmd isn't complete) and look which are most likely initially, search the 1911 census for possible matches for him using age as a guide and note everything down. Eliminate the most obvious records which don't fit the age he would be at the time of the event and narrow down the options.

I would also hunt through trees on Genes, Ancestry and Tribal Pages etc to see if he might be on another tree somewhere, the more you time you invest the less likely it will be that you spend money on wrong 1911 census and death certs later. It may take a while to solve the mystery so keep coming back to it from time to time, it took me three years to solve a mystery with my grandparents but it was worth the wait, with help from members of FTF and a stroke of luck i needed just one certificate in the end but spent months trawling the bmd index looking for clues.

[St Demon 4]

Glen
Thank you for the info,and i will do as you suggest,just one other question,i have in the past looked for various military people and would ask ,does FreeBMD or other ancestry records, record a soldiers death or only civilian personnel

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I have a couple of rellies who died whilst serving, one when his Lancaster crashed returning from a mission and another during a raid, both events were in England so appear in the ordinary bmd index although they both died whilst actually performing their duties.

I'm not sure what the situation is regarding deaths overseas or in the case of an "unknown" soldier, it might be worth visiting the CWGC website and searching their databse, there are thousands of military and civilian casualty details listed. That might at least narrow down a timeframe and place for you. Some listings give address of the deceased or details of a spouse/parent etc.

:: CWGC ::

As an example of what you may find;

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=380658

Given the details listed i was able to work out the freebmd entry quite easily;

Deaths Dec 1918
Elmer Frederick 41 Lincoln 7a 1148

----


I know Ancestry have some military records but it's been so long since my sub expired i'm not sure what the recent additions are.
Findmypast has Armed forces deaths 1796-1994, available via subscription or pay per view.

it might be worth posting a lookup request giving name(s) and see if anyone can spot anything if you don't have access to certain sites.

[garstonite]

good thinking Glenn..........2 people on GR have James Iles b 1844 Wandsworth Surrey in their tree................allan;)

[St Demon 4]

Glen
Thank for the info it will be very helpful, and i had another thought following on from your suggestions re James,What if he han't died ,so i did another trawl on FreeBMD and it came up with an extremely promising entry for March 1917 at Kingston Surrey which covers all the districts he has lived in ,so my friend is going to have a look on ancestry to see if the second name Robert is mentioned,on vol 2apage 814. so thanks once again for all who have given me suggestions.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Deaths are always the hardest ones to find, you can base a year of birth on census and other records, marriages from say around 20 years after birth onwards but deaths!!!

I spent months looking for my grt granny, born 1855, i trawled right up to 1955 several times without success, i eventually found she died in 1956 aged 101, the morale of the story...folks can live beyond 100 years old. Its a lesson i won't forget in a hurry.:D

Best of luck with the search and let us know how you get on, fresh eyes might spot something you would otherwise discount.

[SueinKent]

My great grandfather died in WW1 in France and his death is registered on the overseas register.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Thanks Sue, i thought that was how it worked but didn't want to say so just in case