Can i have an 1841 and 1851 lookup please?

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Looking for the "other" Elmer families in North Elmham, Norfolk.

I know of one already;

Robert c1790
Hannah c1790


Second family are probably John Elmer married to Elizabeth, i'd be particularly interested in dates and places of birth along with any children please.


Hannah from the first family has Middleage or Middleditch/didge ancestors, Elizabeth from the second family was previously Elizabeth Middleage, (possible distant rellies to each other?).

Whether John and Robert Elmer are related i'm not sure as i haven't fathomed their baptisms yet. Robert can't decide where he was born :(

[Darksecretz]

have found a John/elizabeth in the 1851 Glen, just hang on a mo and i'll transcribe for you..

[herky]

Hi Glen,
There is a couple on the 1851 census -
John Elmer b c 1795, Elmhan, living in Erpingham
with his wife Elizabeth b c 1800 Gately, Norfolk
and 2 lodgers - Charles Carr and Antony Nobs.
Could these be yours?

[herky]

Just to add that John is a farming bailiff.

[Darksecretz]

John Elmer b. 1795 Elmham, Norfolk. (occ Farming baliff)

Elizabeth b. 1800 Gately, Norfolk (occ FB wife)

living in parish of Matlask in 1851 census.

does that help at all?? no children living at home on this one.

1851 ref:

Class: HO107; Piece: 1809; Folio: 608; Page: 16

[Darksecretz]

oh do you know that there is an ancestry tree for John??

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/8730188/person/-902373427

[Darksecretz]

1841:

John Elmer- age 40 occ MS
Elizabeth age 40
arthur elmer age 15 occ app
Henry elmer age 10
Jane elmer age 8
Robert Elmer age 75

this is in North Elmham

Class: HO107; Piece 778; Book: 9; Civil Parish: North Elmham; County: Norfolk; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 28; Page: 10; Line: 5;

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Mmm, thanks Julie

The '41 looks interesting, at a guess i would think that the Robert is probably the father (different Joseph to the Robert/Hannah combo though and died Q1 1847).

Farm Bailliff seems common to both families it seems.

Can't get to see that ancestry tree without a sub i'm afraid though i suspect that the tree owner has hit the same wall i have.

[Darksecretz]

do you need anything else looking up Glen?

[Darksecretz]

well the tree owner has Elizabeth Middleage as marrying John, but NO parents for John are Listed,

but yes I would think too that Robert is Johns father, it doesnt give any occ for him at all.

[Darksecretz]

There is a death for Robert in 1844 AMJ Mitford, (if thats the right dist)?>

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I think that's it Julie, thanks.



There is a Robert Elmer aged 71 buried 1859 at North Elmham (birth c1790), my 3xgrt g/f. Let's call him Robert jnr

Robert aged about 78 dies 1847 (so birth c 1769). I suppose it's feasible that they could be father and son, (perhaps Robert jnr was the eldest son?)


I can't prove a connection between them but thinking outloud for a moment

North Elmham marriage 30 May 1808
Robert ELMER Widower to Dinah FRANKLYN Widow

Was Robert married to Mary previously?)

North Elmham baptism 14 Jan 1802
Arthur Elmer to Robert and Mary

North Elmham baptism 27 Jul 1804
George Elmer to Robert and Mary.


edit

Bishops transcripts from the norfolk transcriptions website show a burial at North Elmham for 1807 ELMER, Mary but no dates are given. This would tally with the baptism and remarriage shown above.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

There is a death for Robert in 1844 AMJ Mitford, (if thats the right dist)?>

Right district Julie.

Aged 26, son of Robert jnr Buried 20 Jun 1844 at North Elmham.

1841 for Grange Farm has Robert jnr plus Hannah and children

Anna Elmer abt 1841 Norfolk,
Edward Elmer abt 1829 Norfolk,
George Elmer abt 1824 Norfolk,
Hannah Elmer abt 1801 Norfolk,
John Elmer abt 1821 Norfolk,
Mary Elmer abt 1816 Norfolk,
>>>>Robert Elmer abt 1791 Norfolk, (aka Rbt jnr)

>>>>>Robert Elmer abt 1821 Norfolk, (the 1844 burial)
Sophia Elmer abt 1827 Norfolk,

[Darksecretz]

thats ok..



edit:

I thought that the 1844 death ref was for Robert Elmer (75) as he doesnt appear to be on any more census after 41...

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

No problem Julie, it's a tad confusing as there are 3x Robert Elmers in North Elmham in 1841, two households but just possible they are three generations of one family.

Three death refs 1844, 1847 and 1859 and two burials, 1844 and 1859.

The trouble is that there doesn't appear to be anything pre 1800 on freereg, norfolk transcriptions or the IGI for any of the names found so far, and the link between the two older Roberts and John c1800 can't be proved/disproved at the moment. Looking beyond North Elmham isn't helping either and variant spellings don't give any clues that might help. I just seem to be short of a few vital results.

[Darksecretz]

sounds to me like you will have to be buying some cd's that have Pr's on em then...

praps santa might get you some??

[LorraineJ]

I have found two generations of Robert and one Joseph who married Mary Goward on IGI, free to have a look and the dates seem right within your framework.

[LorraineJ]

Find this interesting from the 1851 census, they can't make up their minds whether he was born in Suffolk or Norfolk but surely has to be the right family.

Name: Robert Elmer
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: North Elmham, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: North Elmham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England



Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5b
Household schedule number: 138
Household Members: Name Age
William Elmer 35
Ann Elmer 32
Thomas Elmer 10
Phillip Elmer 8
Robert Elmer 6
William J H Elmer 1

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Find this interesting from the 1851 census, they can't make up their minds whether he was born in Suffolk or Norfolk but surely has to be the right family.

Name: Robert Elmer
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: North Elmham, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: North Elmham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England



Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5b
Household schedule number: 138
Household Members: Name Age
William Elmer 35
Ann Elmer 32
Thomas Elmer 10
Phillip Elmer 8
Robert Elmer 6
William J H Elmer 1

Thanks Lorraine.

This is where it starts to get difficult to work out who is who for an "ousider".

The family you quote are children and grandchildren of Robert jnr. Robert jnr had several children from 1812-1827, by the time of the '51 and '61 census many were still around North Elmham and married wth families of their own.
Ann (the wife quoted above) was Ann Holden, William J H is William Joseph Holden Elmer, the Holden reference worries me, gets a bit close to OC for my liking.:D

It doesn't help that they use similiar names either, judging by what i know we would seem to have two Joseph Elmers having sons called William, it's just the lack of baptism records around 1780-1800 that is my downfall, although it's possible there was a time they may have drifted from North Elmham and it's hard to asy with any certainty where they may have been if elsewhere.
Option b is that the two Roberts are not related but i can't prove things one way or another at the moment.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Robert jnr born c1790, possibly Brisley, Norfolk according to the 1851.

Children of Robert jnr and Hannah, all baptised North Elmham

29 Dec 1814 ELMER Susanna
09 Feb 1817 ELMER William
30 Jan 1819 ELMER Robert
21 Nov 1820 ELMER John
28 Jan 1823 ELMER George
06 Jun 1825 ELMER Thomas (died 1848)
13 Aug 1827 ELMER Sophia
03 Apr 1829 ELMER Edward

Other North Elmham baptisms for the surname are listed below, these as yet haven't been proved either way as connected to the above family.

Children of John Elmer and Elizabeth Middleage (married North Elmham 12 Nov 1817)

28 Apr 1818 ELMER Eliza
27 Jan 1820 ELMER Mary Ann
26 Feb 1822 ELMER Sarah Ann
18 May 1824 ELMER Arthur
19 Apr 1827 ELMER Harriot
25 Apr 1830 ELMER Henry
25 Jul 1832 ELMER Phillis
27 Jul 1834 ELMER Jane


1841 found by Julie;

John Elmer- age 40 occ MS
Elizabeth age 40
arthur elmer age 15 occ app
Henry elmer age 10
Jane elmer age 8
Robert Elmer age 75 (aka Robert snr))

Class: HO107; Piece 778; Book: 9; Civil Parish: North Elmham; County: Norfolk; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 28; Page: 10; Line: 5;



I suspect Robert snr married a Mary, no marriage confirmed as yet, again North Elmham baptisms

14 Jan 1802 ELMER Arthur
27 Jul 1804 ELMER George

All the above from freereg

IGI also lists the following to a Robert and Mary at North Elmham;

17 FEB 1793 Elmer John
17 FEB 1793 Elmer Thomas
FEB 1796 Elmer Mary
AUG 1798 ELMER JOSEPH


So still nothing to prove that Robert jnr and Robert snr are related, but nothing to really show that they aren't either.