Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Help reading old document please

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Help reading old document please

    My OH is researching the bells of St Andrew's Penrith. He has this extract from the Churchwardens' accounts and cannot read all of it.

    The part we need is about halfway down and we can already read some of it. Can anyone read the missing words, please?

    To John Cannon for ------ and oils to the bells and
    --------- for the year 1654


    Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 30-07-09, 21:03.

  • #2
    Ann

    As soon as I looked at it I thought wax but don't know why as it looks more like wy** now.

    I have no idea about the other word you can't read.
    Lin

    Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

    Comment


    • #3
      ...wyax and oils... so wax indeed!
      ...Clerke for the year...
      Woodcock(Dudley...Worcestershire Broseley...Shropshire) Woodley & Allen(Herts/Essex/London/Kent/Surrey... & NSW/Vic/Queensland... AUS) and MANY, MANY more...!

      Sherlock always gets a result

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, wyax (wax) seems like a good word and fits with the context. Thanks!

        I don't think John Cannon would have been Clerk, though It looks more as if he just looks after the bells. Hmmmm ... having said that it doesn't say for the year 1654 anywhere else on the page.

        Anne

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm not convinced about "wax" - the last letter of the word could very well be an "r" (r's looked like x's at that period). Maybe "wyer" (wire)?

          Instead of "Clerk", could it be "Bells and Clocks"?

          There's the same word in the fourth item, which looks like "for mending a clockes wheele".
          Last edited by Mary from Italy; 29-07-09, 12:03.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, Mary. I think clocks could be a good fit. We thought it ended with an 's'. We had thought of wyer (wire) but it didn't seem to go with oils.

            Thanks for looking folks, any more ideas welcome please!

            Anne

            Comment


            • #7
              I think it's 'wyer'. Look how he forms the 'e' in other words that are clearly legible.

              I wonder why they whipped the dogg?

              That date is an interesting one, as it's post Civil War, when Churches were technically no longer C of E but taken over by appointees of the winning side - often the new vicar/churchwardens would be fairly radical, kind of similar to presbyterians, depending on the area. Could be that in the 1640s, the bells were neglected for some time so needed restoring in the 1650s?
              Last edited by Penelope; 29-07-09, 13:50.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi
                If you look at the line above "2 dayes worke" then its wyre for the bells and Clocke - wire for the weights presumably
                I want to know what the poor old dogg had done too !!

                Roger

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks. I think we'll go with wyer and clocks then.

                  OH says that whipping the dogs appeared in the accounts each year for a good number of years. Presumably they wanted to keep them out of the churchyard in case they went digging

                  Work on the bells is a regular feature in the accounts. Interstingly in this area (north Cumberland) there were bells cast and hung (let alone maintained and restored) during the Civil War time, so no obvious neglect up here. We were probably too far away!!

                  Anne

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Whipping is also a term used in ropes - you can 'whip' a join in a rope it's a method of binding the loose strands of a rope to stop any more fraying it also can be used to make a loop with the rough end being 'whipped' to the main bit.
                    Perhaps the 'dogg' is something to do with the bell ropes?
                    Margaret

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Good thought Margaret but I think the word in the document actually says dogs not dogg. Compare the last letter with other plural words.

                      Anne

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've just had another look and not sure it days dogg or dogs. The first letter looks like an S and I think there's a y in there not a g.
                        I have asked a bell ringing friend if he knows anything about these terms. It just seemed to much of a coincidence that the list was for work on the church bells and presumably the ropes would need attention at times. Can't see anayone charaging/paying for dogs to be whipped LOL
                        Margaret

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It certainly seems strange but apparently it appears in the accounts over many years! We can only think its to keep dogs out of the churchyard.

                          We are bell ringers too! We haven't come accross a term like that in relation to ropes. Work usually done on ropes is 'splicing' - joining to broken bits together. Thanks for your interest - its open to all ideas!

                          Anne

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Anne in Carlisle View Post
                            Work on the bells is a regular feature in the accounts. Interstingly in this area (north Cumberland) there were bells cast and hung (let alone maintained and restored) during the Civil War time, so no obvious neglect up here. We were probably too far away!!
                            Or in Scotland at the time!
                            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Incidentally, I think its "oile" not "oils". The letter that looks like a Greek theta is an "e". Similarly, I think it's a singular "Clocke".

                              Christine
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                He might well have been whipping dogs (animals) out of the church/yard? - Along with the "burying of poore peopl".

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                  Incidentally, I think its "oile" not "oils". The letter that looks like a Greek theta is an "e". Similarly, I think it's a singular "Clocke".

                                  Christine


                                  Yes, I think you could be right Christine. In the case of the word 'wheeles' we can see both the e and the s as in 'oile' or 'dogs'.

                                  Uncle John - LOL, we've been back and forth like a yo-yo!

                                  Anne

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Google tells me that it was customary in Yorkshire for farmers to take their dogs to church, lol and the subsequent barking, snarling and so on was so disruptive that someone was paid to clear the church of disruptive dogs, presumably by whipping them?

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Re. whipping the dogs - there was a Saint's day (forget which one) in the next parish from here where once a year, you could legally murder any dog you found loose in the streets. Apparently, the tradition grew up as this village was one of the Archbishop of York's residences, and at some point a dog had gone into York Minster and done something nasty on a saint's relic or statue or something, so on that saint's day - right upto the 19thC you could kill (or whip) any dogs you found with gay abandon...

                                      In the past people often dried their laundry over gravestones - so much so it became a problem in some parishes, but was tolerated in others. Maybe they didn't want the dogs peeing on their clean washing? People didn't always treat graveyards with quite the respect and decorum we fondly imagine they did...

                                      Ah yes apparently (just looked it up online) some churches had elabroate systems of wires attaching the bells to the clock. So 'wyer' would make sense. And all that work in the 1650s no doubt to compensate for years of neglect (or even damage) during the 1640s.
                                      Last edited by Penelope; 29-07-09, 23:42.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I thought it might say "dayes" rather than "doggs", and wondered if "whipping the dayes" was a bellringing term, but I guess not as Anne hasn't heard of it.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X