is this a possible way of finding Ann Kay,Penistone ?

[garstonite]

am I right in thinking this is a way of finding my 5 x g grandmother ?
Ann Kay gave birth in Penistone Workhouse to Harriot Kay on 17th April 1810.
Harriot Kay gave birth in the same workhouse to Margy Kay in 1826...Harriot was 16....on Margery Kays marriage cert her father is named as Samuel Hadfield.....so..
does anyone think that if I look for Ann Kay in the 1841 census in Penistone who would be born abt 1790 that I MAY find Ann with a possible family...or am I clutching at straws....also
on igi its HARRIOT for her own christening and Hariet as mother for Margy`s christening..
Margy on the christening and Margery on her wedding cert....were these just spelling errors ??....
so do I look for ANN KAY aged abt 51 in the 1841 census for Penistone in West Riding in Yorkshire....I researched these 3 in April and also January of this year....so if it looks familiar ,don`t shout,...i just thought that today I might have come up with a possible way of finding ANN....
BTW....on freebmd Penistone is down as 1911-1946...anyone any idea which district Penistone came under prior to 1911....(just found out it was WORTLEY )..thank you for your attention....allan;)

[Elaine ..Spain]

Well I can answer the last question!
The registration district for Penistone, between 1837 and 1911, was Wortley.

I'll have a look at the 1841 census to see if I can see anything about your Kay family.

[garstonite]

Thanks Elaine....I have found a possible death for
Ann Kay aged 87...Wortley ,Jun qtr 1879 ref no 9c 159
.this would make her born in 1792 and 18 when Harriot was born...if by any slight chance this is her,she will be on 1841 / 51 /61 /71 census returns...
the problem is there are 3 other deaths 1853 / 1860 and 1863 but no ages given on these 3....
the 87 yr old fits in well....clutching at straws again...lol....allan:D

[Elaine ..Spain]

Have found this one that I can trace through to 1871 - so she is probably the one that died in 1879

1841 household:
Thos Kay 45
Ann Kay 45
Benjm Kay 25
Geoe Kay 21
Mary Kay 14
- living in Strafforth/Tickhill

1851 household:
Thomas Kay 59
Ann Kay 59 - born Bradfield
Benjamin Kay 36
- living Bradfield (Wortley)

1861:
Thomas Kay 69
Ann Kay 69
Benjamin Kay 46
Mary Kay 34
- living Bradfield (Wortley)

1871:
Thomas Kay 79
Ann Kay 79
Benjamin Kay 56
- living in Holdworth

[Elaine ..Spain]

Do you know if Ann had another child - Joseph

From the IGI:
JOSEPH KAY
Christening: 25 Feb 1827 Penistone, Yorkshire
Mother: ANN KAY
- no father listed

[garstonite]

Thanks Elaine...I`ll see if I can find a marriage on IGI about 1815...this would have made Ann abt 16 when Harriot was born.....but her name would have to have been Ann Kay marrying Thomas Kay....highly unlikely....then again...allan
ADDED...just seen your last post.....very likely isn`t it..1 yr later...allan

[Elaine ..Spain]

Have you considered whether Ann married late in life?

From the IGI
Ann Kaye / David Higgens
Marriage: 27 AUG 1832 Penistone, Yorkshire, England

1841 census for Penistone:
David Higgin 60
Ann Higgin 60 ............ but maybe a bit too old for your Ann!
John Higgin 20


PS I agree the Thomas Kay/Ann Kay are unlikely!

[Elaine ..Spain]

1841 census for Penistone:
David Higgin 60
Ann Higgin 60
John Higgin 20

Oops .... nearly missed that ... in the same household is JOSEPH KAY, age 14, apprentice coalminer!

[Elaine ..Spain]

Cannot see Ann Higgin on 1851 census but there are two possible deaths

Deaths Dec 1846
HIGGINS Ann
Wortley 22 609

Deaths Sep 1847
Higgins Ann
Wortley 22 472

[garstonite]

Elaine
Margy christened 1st October 1826
Joseph christened 25th February 1827......it can only work if Margy was born abt March 1826.....but Both have no father / mother Ann Kay....is there any way to check if Joseph was born in the Penistone Workhouse ?.....allan

[garstonite]

Elaine...you beauty ...let me check...I have some notes on a David HIGGEN...I`m excited now....allan

[Elaine ..Spain]

...is there any way to check if Joseph was born in the Penistone Workhouse ?.....allan

Not unless there is something on the parish records - or at the local Records Office

[Elaine ..Spain]

Elaine
Margy christened 1st October 1826
Joseph christened 25th February 1827......it can only work if Margy was born abt March 1826....

-- but Margy is Harriett's child ... and Joseph is Ann's child!

[garstonite]

..SORRY ELAINE....Getting confused (again)...
.No luck with Higgen...that`s a family from Eardisley in Herefordshire...
David Higgens marries ANN KAYE in Penistone 27th August 1832...thats 22 years after Harriot was born...and 11 years after John Higgins was born....possible second marriage for David.......
this would make Ann b in 1781....and 29 when Harriot was born ....What do you think ???....a little old....
the 1879 death still fits in best for me....stupid question for you,do you think that Harriot b in the workhouse spent her 16yrs there before giving birth to Margy ??....allan

[Elaine ..Spain]

..
David Higgens marries ANN KAYE in Penistone 27th August 1832...thats 22 years after Harriot was born...and 11 years after John Higgins was born....possible second marriage for David.......

If it's the right family for the 1832 marriage then I would say it was a second marriage for David. I wonder if the parish record holds any clue as to marital status, e.g. widower for David?

this would make Ann b in 1781....and 29 when Harriot was born ....What do you think ???....a little old....

Umm ... at 29 she's not too old to have a child! Same age I had my first! ;)

.
the 1879 death still fits in best for me....

Thought you had discounted this one - as it means that Ann Kay (unmarried mum to Harriott) would have married a Thomas Kay. Also they seem to be centred more around the Bradfield area than Penistone.

do you think that Harriot b in the workhouse spent her 16yrs there before giving birth to Margy ??....allan

Difficult to say - are there any records available for Penistone workhouse that you could check.

[garstonite]

thanks Elaine....can`t find any Thomas Kay / Ann Kay marriage on IGI...got to go out now...thanks for all your help this morning....as always ,you`re a star....allan;)

[Elaine ..Spain]

There are a couple of Thomas Kay/Ann marriages in Bradfield - one in 1814 to Ann Brown and another to Ann Trickett in 1816.
I think these would be more likely for the Ann/Thomas Kay that we found in the census up to 1871, as she states her place of birth as Bradfield and the dates fit with the birth of the first child Benjamin. Also the children listed on the 1841 census appear to have been christened in Bradfield (IGI).
Personally, I think you can safely discount this one.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Allan

It is extremely unlikely that Harriot spent 16 years in the workhouse.

Before the Union Workhouse Act in 1836, the workhouse was a place of temporary shelter for the absolutely destitute.

Once her mother had recovered from the birth, she would either be kicked out, or put to such awful work she would discharge herself, probably taking the baby with her. However, if she abandoned the baby Ann, then Ann herself would have been put out to work from the age of 7, possibly earlier than that, poor mite.

If, for some unknown reason (severe disability is all I can think of) Ann did spend 16 years in the workhouse, she would not have had any opportunity to get pregnant!

The good thing (from our point of view) about the poor law system before 1836 is that fathers were vigorously pursued and forced to pay maintenance for the child and just about every illegitimate birth in the workhouse was matched promptly with a bastardy order. (Christening followed about a week after birth and the bastardy order was issued immediately the child had been baptised - same day or following).

Bastardy Orders used to be easy to find on the old A2A but I have no idea how to find them on TNA!!! If you CAN find one, they are usually extremely informative. My 3 x GGM was a norty girl and had three illegitimate children. The father of the first child did a runner, and so my 4 x GGF was pursued for maintenance of his grandchild, which he undertook (he didn't for the second and third, thoroughly fed up of the girl by then!)

If the father could not be found then the parish authorities would pursue the woman's male relatives for maintenance. Midwives were instructed to extract the name of the father from the woman while she was in labour (Bastardy Examination) and surprisingly few men ever denied paternity once the order had been issued.

OC

[garstonite]

Thanks OC....actually,I think it was a stupid question because I`m sure Harriot was a weaver....would it state this on Margerys Marriage Cert ?...
haven`t heard from you for a while OC....is everything OK or are you still seperating those 2 men fighting over you on your front lawn ?????..lol...allan;)

[Olde Crone Holden]

Allan

No, I'm fine, but I've been busy worshipping at the altar of my 10 week old grandson who has been here for the last week and requires my full attention, lol!

OC