Lost gt grandfather? Can anyone find him?

[castanea1985]

I am looking for my husbands gt. grandfather.

John Seymour b. 4 Aug 1885 in Newbiggin (Cumberland), Northumbria.

All we know is his father was called John and he married a Mary Jane Ashworth in Failsworth, Manchester on 6 Feb 1913. He served in WW1 and I have his short service record from Ancestry.

What I can't find.. is any census records of him in 1891 or 1901?
I have access to 1911, but haven't looked for him yet.

Can anybody find him??

[dicole]

I had a look but cannot see him either. I can see three or four places called Newbiggin in Cumbria and Durham, which seem to be spread from Penrith to Castle Barnard. I guess narrowing down exactly where he was born would help.

Freebmd is showing no births in the Newbiggin area - its not definitive, but its pretty good now.

Either he was not born in Northumberland/Cumbria/Durham (nearest in 1885 is Newcastle) or John Seymour was not the name he was registered under.

The only marriage for John Seymour in 1913 in Lancashire is to Mary J Sidlow, - ah, Mary Jane Ashworth married Frank Sidlow in 1900, (Frank died Sep Q 1911).

In the 1911 census, Mary Jane in Prestwich District with Frank, Harold, Herbert and Ivy Sidlow.

I will keep lookin for a bit

Di

[dicole]

I just looked at his army records - why do you think he told the Army he married Mary Jane, a spinster, in 1900 and that Herbert was his son ?

I wonder if the Army noted that he was only 15 when he got married (born 1885, married 1900).

If he lied about that, he could have lied about a lot of other things, including his real name !!

If you change the birthplace to Newbiggin Yorkshire, then a John Seymour born in 1884 in Newbiggn/Streethouse shows up in the 1901 census as a coalminer - only his father is Henry, a coalminer.

Di

[Richard in Perth]

I noticed that too, about his marriage details on his pension records! It looks like he gave the details of Mary Jane's first marriage (to Frank Sidlow). In fact, three of the four children were actually Frank's, not his. So my guess is he lied on the army form so that the step-children would be treated as though they were his own with regards to his army pension, etc. I wonder if he realised that it made him only 15 at marriage (well technically that was legal in those days!).

Can't find him in 1891/1901 either, nor can I find his birth. Do you have his marriage cert, in 1913? If so, what did he say was his father's occupation?

[castanea1985]

Sorry forgot to mention that Mary Jane had married before.
In actual fact John and Mary married at St. Johns church in Failsworth, Oldham, Manchester on 6 Feb 1913.... quite a while after the 1900 registry office marriage... they were supposed to have when he was 15!


I got his father's name and occupation from their wedding cert, but it did say that father John was deceased. They were both listed as being colliers. John was aged 27 and Mary Jane aged 30 and a widow.
John was living at 5 Ash St, Failsworth.

You wouldn't think he'd have to lie on his wedding day?? Would you?? I wonder whether Henry was known as John and that could be our family??

Gosh its annoying!

[Janet in Yorkshire]

There is a Newbiggin in Northumberland, near (or part of? ) Blyth. That was a coal mining area - just to add a bit more into the melting pot!

Jay

[dicole]

Mary Jane was telling fibs too - if she was 30 in 1913 (born 1883) that does not tally with her census records which gives her birthdate as 1878. Perhaps they just did not like to have an eight year gap.

I have a friend who says her husband does not know how old she is - he could guess, but never be sure - we think she was around 6 years older than him.

Di

[castanea1985]

Thanks for that Di, I had been so engrossed in trying to find John, that I'd missed the difference in Mary's dates!
Gosh, these two did quite a bit of 'fibbing' didn't they!
Just wish I could find some trace of John and his father John?

[dicole]

Have you tried sourcing the Newbiggin parish records ? Even after civil registration, most people christened their children, and the records have not been added to the IGI, as civil reg. took over as main source of identity.

Also, Seymour could be his mothers name and his father was John Smith or something else. There are Seymour BMDs for the Morpeth Reg District of Northumberland, so I would keep looking. Sometimes it will take years for a breakthrough, so don't despair of never finding any more.

[castanea1985]

Thanks Diane.
I'm not sure which Newbiggin John came from so I really don't know where to look?
It seems weird that there is no sign of John in any of the censuses from 91 - 11?
This is really stumping me!

Tracy

[castanea1985]

I am just resurrecting my post of four years ago, to see if anyone has any new ideas of where I could look, as I still haven't found John Seymour! :(

[Sylvia C]

lots of people lied on marriage certificates!


wrong ages ................. my grandfather said he was 19, and my grandmother said she was 20. They were in fact 17 and 19 respectively. What's more .............. the 2 fathers and other members of the family were at the ceremony. So why, especially as it left them both as minors???!

Two of the most common reasons for giving the wrong age, are being a minor and not wanting family to know (or maybe they would not give permission), and a big age difference between the bride and groom

Wrong names ........... their own or their fathers ................... very common for an illegitimate child to give a name and occupation (or deceased) for the non-existent father. They could have made up a name, used the name of a family member, a friend, or someone known in the community.

They'd give the wrong address as well .................... banns were supposed to be called in each parish where the bride and groom lived. That cost money. So it is not uncommon to see the same address given for them both. This does not necessarily mean that they were living together, or living in the same house .................. but was a convenient way to avoid having to pay for 2 lots of banns.

[clematised]

My GF was missing off the 1901 census as he was in SAfrica in the Beor War have you checked for military papers.

I have one marriage cert where she committed bigamy and lied bout her married name being her maiden name and so had to change her fathers surname on her second marriage cert to cover up the deciet always comes out in the end.

Edna

[Night Owl]

Just to add to the confusion, in his army papers there is a medical report dated June 1918 in which it says "Age last birthday 37". That would mean he was born around 1881

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=1114&path=S.Se.Sey.1384&sid=&gskw=John+Seymour

[Guest]

John Seymour.JPGwhats his occupation here ?

[Night Owl]

I may be completely off track here but WW1 began at the beginning of August 1914. John Seymour enlisted on 17th August 1914 and said he was 29 years 13 days old.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/27777

When Kitchener first ran a drive to recruit more soldiers the terms of service were that the men had to be between 19 and 30. According to this website the upper age limit was extended to 35 three weeks later.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWrecruit.htm

Makes me wonder whether John was over 30 when he joined up but lied so he wasn't over age

[Sylvia C]

Jackie


that is very possible, especially if he was very patriotic ......

.............. or wanted to get away from something / someone!

[castanea1985]

Oh gosh! Thanks for that!
Not sure where to start now.. can't even find out when or where he died.. have started a look up thread to see if anyone could find out if there was an obituary for his wife who died in 1925. We know his three children went into care/orphanage when she died.

[castanea1985]

But, why would he lie on his wedding certificate? They married in 1913 before the war started?

[castanea1985]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16664[/ATTACH]whats his occupation here ?

I can't tell what it is Val? I wonder if anyone else can?
On his wedding cert he is a collier.