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  • Opinions please...

    I've been taking another look at my GGM. I found out long ago that GM was illegitimate, her mother, Mary, was 21 when she had her and she was brought up by her grandparents as their daughter (at least until she was 16 - when she was finally listed in the census as granddaughter). Mary was their eldest daughter and never married or left the family home. After the death of her mother she stayed with her father and while he was still working aged 82 according to the 1891 census, she never worked except for one census entry of "laundry" when she was 17. Finally, in 1901 (after the death of her father) she was living with her daughter & family and is listed as "Imbecile". As she was only 67 am I right in thinking this is a bit young for dementia - I am considering the possibility that she was always "a bit simple" as they used to say - hence not holding down a job. I would be grateful for opinions.
    Alison

  • #2
    Dementia in your 60s is not impossible, but perhaps as you say she was 'just a bit simple' - could be she was able to help out round the home but couldn't cope with a job.

    My GGGmother had twins and one was listed as 'imbecile' on every census. His mother made special provision for him in her Will.

    Any chance your GGparents left a Will?

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, the Victorian definition of imbecile was supposed to be an adult with the mental age of about five years, but I have often seen it misused.

      She may have been a "bit simple" but I don't know how you could prove that unless there is any previous remark on any previous census.

      67 isn't too young for dementia to develop - some people get it in their early 40s. My maternal grandmother was only 60 when she went "a bit funny" and went on to fullblown alzheimers.

      OC

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      • #4
        The previous census' only had the column, deaf,/dumb or blind I think, I believe the Imbecile option is only on the 1901. I'm amazed I've only just noticed it tacked on at the end. Just goes to show i usually scan the census for the bits I want and don't actually pan out past the place of birth - I will in future ! I will have a look for a will though, as I'm sure he would have provided for her if he could, though he probably didn't have much as he was still working to provide for them aged 82 !
        Alison

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        • #5
          I have certainly seen imbecile used before 1901 on the census, sometimes written in the deaf/dumb column and sometimes written in the occupation column! This may of course be the enumerator's doing - I have seen other subjective remarks on the census, certainly not supplied by the householder, such as "wife. She says" and "illegitimate" - which was CERTAINLY never required for any census.

          I have one poor chap who is an imbecile from birth according to the census, then suddenly at the age of 45 "helps father in shop".

          OC

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          • #6
            Originally posted by herebedragons View Post
            The previous census' only had the column, deaf,/dumb or blind I think, I believe the Imbecile option is only on the 1901.
            1891 has Lunatic, Imbecile, or Idiot as option 3 in the disability column
            1881 and 1871 option 3 Imbecile or Idiot, option 4 Lunatic
            Judith passed away in October 2018

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            • #7
              I suspect 'imbecile' was used to cover a wide range of conditions, not just dementia. I don't think things were as well defined then as they are now. It may well have been used to mean "a bit simple". One of my great aunts was generally described as being a bit simple and had the mental age of a child. I went to look at her census entry for comparison, to see if this would help you, but she only appears in the 1911 census and the "infirmity" column has been removed.

              Alzheimers doesn't just attack the very old: we had a family friend who was diagnosed with it at age 55.
              Looking for Bysh, Potter, Littleton, Parke, Franks, Sullivan, Gosden, Carroll, Hurst, Churcher, Covell, Elverson, Giles, Hawkins, Witherden...

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              • #8
                The fact that she had a child who was regarded as her sister (and who regarded herself as a sibling to her uncles and aunts) but who was then acknowledged at 16 suggests the only one they were protecting was the child, not the mother, and makes me wonder if she was not able to understand the stigma that would be associated with it all.
                Alison

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                • #9
                  No, I don't buy that explanation Alison.

                  I've seen it too many times on census, grandparents covering up for their errant daughter's mistake then much later letting slip she is a granddaughter.

                  This has nothing to do with the mother being simple and everything to do with saving face even in front of the census enumerator, who was probably someone they knew anyway and didn't want knowing all their business.

                  OC

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                  • #10
                    I also have a relative who thought his granny was his mum to cover up for an illegitimacy - I am certain they would have hidden the truth on a census form. Mum, granny and child were of normal intelligence and the reason, I am sure, was to protect the young mum and child from the stigma and also to save face in their community.
                    A child born out of wedlock was frowned upon until fairly recently.
                    herky
                    Researching - Trimmer (Farringdon), Noble & Taylor (Ross and Cromarty), Norris (Glasgow), McGilvray (Glasgow and Australia), Leck & Efford (Glasgow), Ferrett (Hampshire), Jenkins & Williams (Aberystwyth), Morton (Motherwell and Tipton), Barrowman (Glasgow), Lilley (Bromsgrove and Glasgow), Cresswell (England and Lanarkshire). Simpson, Morrow and Norris in Ireland. Thomas Price b c 1844 Scotland.

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                    • #11
                      yes, actually it happened again to the daughters own grandaughter and she was so stern about it, my mother thought she was a hypocrite when i told her about this !
                      It was my mothers half sister and the secret was kept in that case until I started investigating, then my mother asked her eldest sister for permission to tell me that my "uncle" was in fact my cousin. I think the fact that this woman never held down a job and always lived with someone to look after her speaks volumes, to me anyway.
                      Alison

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                      • #12
                        Several of my Victorian aunts never had a job and always lived, first with their parents, then with a brother or other relative.

                        This was not because they were simple, but because they were too "refeened" to work, lol. One was considered delicate but this didn't stop her driving a car in the 1910s!

                        You may be right, yours may have been a bit simple, but I wouldn't go on the evidence of only one census entry and the circumstantial evidence you have quoted would apply equally to any girl who had blotted her copybook at that time.

                        OC

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                        • #13
                          The old definitions were

                          Idiot - born 'mentally retarded'.
                          Imbecile - 'mentally retarded', onset later in life (could be due to an
                          accident or senile dementia etc.).
                          Lunatic - where the condition shows periods of lucidity (thought to be
                          connected to the lunar cycles).

                          The degree of 'mental retardation' varied immensely and meant any
                          behaviour outside what was considered normal therefore a young woman
                          having an illegitimate baby could at times be regarded as a lunatic.
                          The more precise medical conditions according to a rigorous scale were a
                          later adaptation.
                          Cheers
                          Guy
                          Guy passed away October 2022

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                          • #14
                            The problem is, Guy, that not every Victorian knew, or used, the precise definitions.

                            I have one "imbecile from birth" which is patently nonsense according to the proper definitions.

                            OC

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