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Is anyone researching the DYBALL family in Deptford or the SADD family in Suffolk?

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  • Is anyone researching the DYBALL family in Deptford or the SADD family in Suffolk?

    I am trying to discover when and where did Mary Dyball die.

    Mary was born in 1821 in Little Glemham, Suffolk.

    Mary is a sister of my ancestor Philip. Their parents are Jonathan and Sarah. Here is the transcription of the inscription on their gravestone:

    "In affectionate memory of
    JONATHAN SADD
    who died May 4th 1874 aged 84 years.
    Oh the sweet joy this sentence gives,
    I know that my redeemer lives.
    In affectionate memory of
    SARAH SADD
    who died February 7th 1852 aged 62 years.
    We part in hope to meet again.
    Erected by their daughter Mary Ann Dyball."

    When I received a photograph of their gravestone a few years ago from a cousin, I started following the life story of Mary, and I have learned a lot about her and her family - that she married Amos Fletcher, that he died young, the names of her children and what happened to them, that she married John Dyball in 1856 in Deptford, that he was a wealthy man, and that, from his will, Mary would forfeit everything if she married again. His beneficiaries were Mary, his daughters, and two grandchildren. Mary's brother and sister-in-law George and Fanny Sadd were witnesses of the will.

    What I cannot discover is when Mary died. The GRO indexes have been searched, but the registration is not there. I know that sometimes deaths have not been registered, having found at least one occurrence of that recently.

    John died in 1885 at 1 Reginald Road, Deptford, also known as May Cottage; the informant was Caroline Smith, a sister of Mary. John and Mary were there in 1881. In 1891, John's daughter Elizabeth was there with her husband Samuel Rutherford and their children. Caroline was next door. Mary is nowhere to be seen, unless she is in Camberwell with the wrong age given.
    Joy

  • #2
    Could you say what date Mary was born please
    Buttercup

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Buttercup View Post
      Could you say what date Mary was born please

      Oops! Just spotted it :o
      Buttercup

      Comment


      • #4
        I think you are right about the 1891 census - although it's ten years out, it's fits her as widow and birthplace. Is there any reason or connection with Norfolk? The only Mary's I see between 1891 and 1901 to die are all in Norfolk.

        Sorry, not much help
        Buttercup

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Buttercup View Post
          I think you are right about the 1891 census - although it's ten years out, it's fits her as widow and birthplace. Is there any reason or connection with Norfolk? The only Mary's I see between 1891 and 1901 to die are all in Norfolk.

          Sorry, not much help


          Thank you. No, she had no connection with Norfolk.
          Joy

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          • #6
            Have you actually got a copy of John Dyball's will?
            Do you know what his occupation was? (I only have familysearch access where I am today, and his occupation is garbled.)

            Have you looked for Mary Ann in probate records?
            If he left her a significant amount, then when she diesd one would expect at least an Administration of her estate.

            John Dyball was born in Norfolk, so quite possible that she could have died there, living with or visiting family.

            Reginald Road was extensively bombed (blitz and a V1) in World War 2. May Cottage was probably destroyed then.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you for your reply, Bill.

              Yes, I have a copy of John's will. At varying times, John was a shopkeeper, wood dealer, timber dealer, wood cutter, firewood dealer, timber merchant, proprietor of houses, retired stevedore, retired contractor - this is the one that looks like eelwid something in the 1881 census; the staff at the Family Records Centre had a struggle deciphering this but eventually decided it was retired contractor, and he is described as gentleman on his death certificate and in his burial record and in his will.

              No, I haven't looked for Mary Ann in probate records - is there anywhere other than the place in Holborn where I can search for that, I wonder?

              John left several properties including May Cottage to Mary.

              According to John's will, in 1885, his Gross value of personal estate was £4972 3s 1d. A lot of money then.

              Although John was born in Scottow, Norfolk, I doubt, though could be wrong, that Mary would have gone to Norfolk.

              Yes, unfortunately, May Cottage and many other houses in Reginald Road were destroyed at that time, as you said. I had a lovely chat with the vicar of St Paul's (Deptford), where Mary and John married, and he told me how closely the church came to being bombed.
              Last edited by Joy Dean; 02-07-09, 18:48.
              Joy

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              • #8
                You need to search the death duty index on FindmyPast to see if Mary left a will. It's a bit expensive when you don't know the date of death, though, unless you have a subscription.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What date was the will made? (to narrow down the date when Mary Ann was last known to be alive)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you, Mary. We subscribe to ancestry but not to find my past; I may go and look at find my past later this evening. The will was proved 16th July 1885.
                    Joy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      But the will could have been made several years earlier, and Mary Ann could have died before it was proved. If you have a copy of the will, you need to look at the date when it was made.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Take a look at The Times Saturday, Jun 20, 1857; pg. 11; Issue 22712; col C
                        (If your local library is signed up access is free via the library's website.) A John Dyball was sued by a labourer John Conway who injured unloading Dyball's ship at Woolwich. In this context owner may mean charterer, the cargo was timber and Conway from Deptford. In 1857 it is unlikely that a labourer would be travelling to Woolwich to work on a regular basis and I would presume that he was hired in Deptford. Might just be a coincidence but worth looking.

                        Not the only Dyball in 19th century Deptford:
                        Browse - Central Criminal Court

                        At present it is the Principal Registry or pay through the nose for probate records, but there are rumours that the calendar books may be scanned and online in a year or two.

                        You mention John Dyball's burial record, I take it she is not in the same grave.

                        As for St Paul's the church was a useful navigational reference point and enemy bombers left it alone. The real threat was the bishop in the 1960s who wanted to knock it down and build a 'modern worship centre' . The redoubtable Rev David Diamond told the bishop where to get off and the church survived. It is now listed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                          But the will could have been made several years earlier, and Mary Ann could have died before it was proved. If you have a copy of the will, you need to look at the date when it was made.


                          Sorry, I should have said the will was proved and administration of his estate was granted to Mary Dyball of May Cottage, widow, Walter Robert Kersey, of 108 High Street, Deptford, solicitor and James George Andrews of the Peter the Great Tavern, Foreign Cattle Market, Deptford, licensed victualler, the executors.
                          On 16th July 1885 Probate of this Will and Codicil was granted to Mary Dyball, widow, Walter Robert Kersey and James George Andrews, the executors.
                          Joy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you. I shall have to ask in the library.

                            His will stipulated that she should be buried with him and it gave the inscriptions that he wanted for her and for himself. The head of bereavement services has been incredibly helpful and found the burial records for John and his son, buried together, plus those for Mary's children, William, Arthur and Trelawney Fletcher, who are buried with John's mother Sarah Dyball; however, there was no record that Mary is buried with John snr and jnr. If I can give a date of death, then another search will be made.

                            I checked the criminal court link, thank you, but Mary was not there then.

                            St Paul's is a beautiful church. I have been there, to Reginald Road, and to Brockley Cemetery.
                            Joy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Had you consisdered the possibility that she may have remarried, despite the stipulation in the will?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                There are various references to a John Dyball in Deptford if you search in Google Books (either 'John Dyball' or +dyball +deptford) , sadly nothing in my brief skim that points anywhere near Mary.

                                James George Andrews happens to be of interest to me - Deptford Pub History is my passion - was he named in the will as an executor and if so what date was the will signed?

                                Are the witnesses names legible?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                                  Had you consisdered the possibility that she may have remarried, despite the stipulation in the will?

                                  Yes, I had considered that and searched for a marriage but could not find one.
                                  Joy

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Bill Ellson View Post
                                    There are various references to a John Dyball in Deptford if you search in Google Books (either 'John Dyball' or +dyball +deptford) , sadly nothing in my brief skim that points anywhere near Mary.

                                    James George Andrews happens to be of interest to me - Deptford Pub History is my passion - was he named in the will as an executor and if so what date was the will signed?

                                    Are the witnesses names legible?

                                    Thank you.

                                    Yes, he was named as an executor. I could not find him in any census, but I did find Walter Robert Kersey through the census and in this site:
                                    Walter Robert Kersey - I2209 - Individual Information - - PhpGedView

                                    John signed 21st April 1880.

                                    The witnesses' names are legible. They are R.J. Stringer and Ann Sadd, witnesses of the will, and Eliza Rutherford, Kate Fletcher, George Sadd and Fanny Sadd, witnesses of a codicil made 10th November 1881:

                                    George Andrews at the Peter the Great in the Cattle Market, Licensed Victualler, Deptford, trustees named in his will, and the will is to stand good as it is except the butchers shop in Wellington Street and the slaughter house that is now a dwelling house, both the houses are to be given to his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford for the remainder of her life and at her death to be left in trust to Mr Kersey for the benefit of the children of his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford.
                                    He gave no. 15 south side of Reginald Road, occupied by Mrs Sayers, to his wife Mary Dyball so long as she lives and at her death it is to be given to his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball. And if his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball should die then it is to go to his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford and be dealt with as the will states by Mr Kersey. This house was bought by him after his will was made.


                                    I don't know the first witness. The others are all relatives of Mary, except Eliza Rutherford who is one of John's daughters.
                                    Last edited by Joy Dean; 02-07-09, 21:43.
                                    Joy

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Bill Ellson;
                                      Not the only Dyball in 19th century Deptford:
                                      [url=http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18540102-213&div=t18540102-213
                                      Browse - Central Criminal Court[/url]
                                      .
                                      Just checked my notes - John's first wife Catherine died towards the end of 1855.
                                      Joy

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                                      • #20
                                        Hoping someone may be researching them.
                                        Joy

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