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  • Wanna swap lookups ??

    I think I exhausted all the options I can think of so wondered if anybody is bored with theirs we can trade ???
    I'm not expecting miracles

    Miriam Rebecca Guttentag/Rose born 1870 Mile End
    She is unmarried on the 1901 census living with her Parents Abraham (who has now become Mark) and Esther living in Hackney
    1911 census living in Devonshire Street Mile End
    has a Minnie Macks Widow occupation Cap finisher aged 35 born Mile End married 7 years with son Charles aged 3 born Hackney
    She was born in 1870 so it is the wrong age
    Got her Death Cert she died in 1933 aged 62 ,which is correct, in Bancroft Lodge Workhouse Mile End
    says Miriam Rebecca Macks otherwise known as Minnie Mack Widow of Charles George Macks the informant is her Son

    I am looking for her Marriage and her Husbands Birth or Death (does says Diver as occupation) so maybe died diving ?? also the Sons Birth


    ANYTHING WOULD BE APPRECIATED THANKS

  • #2
    1911 she could have lied about her age?
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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    • #3
      There's a Charles Edward Mack born Jun 1908 St Olave.

      Not sure where it is but put London in the search.
      Lin

      Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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      • #4
        The only Charles George I could find a birth for was MACK again.

        Sep 1858 St Giles. Did a search for the whole country.

        Also looked under Max but no luck.
        Lin

        Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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        • #5
          hi and thanks for your replies Nell I know she lied its defintely her
          Lin I did see him and wondered about him ?? and thats the only one I could find thats of course if he was born here ???
          Would either of you say that the death I found could be the son ???

          oops whats the swap then ??

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          • #6
            On her death cert what does it say what her sons full name is?

            No swap needed at the mo but will remember if I want some help soon!!
            Lin

            Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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            • #7
              Charles Mack is all it says

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              • #8
                hi val
                iv had a look at this today while iv been rained off.
                what a family the rose family seem to be.
                they do throw up a few questions though.
                if we take it that the miriam rebecca you have in 1911 is the one born in mile end in 1870 have you followed her backwards.
                if you go back to 1861 you find abraham and esther with hyam david. next door is a family called lazarus, with a lydia lazarus 38 living there unmarried and the daughter of the head isaac.
                in 1871 abraham's wife is called susan, all the children with them fit what are on the bmd. but lydia lazarus is living with them and shown as been the mother living on ind means.
                in 1881 it is still abraham and susan and the first 3 children have changed their names to more english ones.
                in 1891 susan is now shown as been the sister in law, lydia is the mother in law now
                finally in 1901 abraham seems to have changed his name to mark and susan is back to esther. after 30-40 years of getting their and their childrens ages right they get them all wrong.
                to cloud it even more look at the marriages that are available for abraham.
                in 1860 there is a marriage for abraham isaac gottantag to esther joel but there is also a marriage in 1857 for abraham rose to susan joel.
                i cant find anyone that even goes close to matching the joel's, and their supposed mother is never as far as i can see called joel or lives with anyone except her father until 1861.

                do you trust anything that is recorded about them?

                what certs have you got for her other than her death, do you have any of her family's certs.

                atb

                perth

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                • #9
                  Could Esther and Susan have been sisters and he married the other when the first wife died?

                  *** if so, then maybe he just kept forgetting which sister he was married to***

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                  • #10
                    I thougth last night about name changes.

                    Did you read any of the Hospital Records thread on Adoption? They had a lot of the names Perth Tiger put up for you and were forever changing their names.

                    If some of the people who helped there see this they will be able to help you better than I can.
                    Lin

                    Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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                    • #11
                      hi and oh yes I have the certs I needed to confirm this lot .
                      Abraham Rose did marry Susan Joel in 1857 in a Church he then married her again in a Synagogue in 1860 under Abraham Isaac Guttentag and she was Esther Joel .
                      I have always thought Lydia Lazarus was Esther Susans unmarried Mother?
                      I have seen the Headstones of all three and confirmed its them by the Death Certs.
                      Esther's Death Cert says Susannah Rose ??? aged 72
                      Two of the Sons also married the same women twice in the same circumstances.
                      I think the reasons for the name change on 1901 was because Abraham had been tried and found guilty of fraud ?? so he was lying low .
                      I have never found Esther Susans Birth wish I could .
                      The whole family are a problem to research .
                      I did find out recently that one of the grandchildren had told a family member never to repeat the fact she had been Jewish , quite sad really.

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                      • #12
                        lol val i didnt know jewish families did things like this back then.
                        so back to miriam and charles.
                        and im stuck with ideas.
                        have you got the workhouse records for miriam?
                        does her name show up in anything else at all?

                        perth

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                        • #13
                          Val have you tried the Jewish board on Rootsweb. I am sure that they would be able to help you. sort this out.
                          british-jewry@rootsweb.com

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                          • #14
                            the only thing i can come up with is a page of marriages in dec 1905 in mile end. all the women are called rachel leah, one has the surname gutentof. one of the men is called marks kisch. is there something jewish about the names or the significance of them all been together

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                            • #15
                              Martyn I think she only died in the workhouse dont think she was living there?
                              Suppose I could send for the records though??
                              I do have her on every census since she was born so know where she was.
                              Her husband so it says on her death cert was a Diver ??? was hoping to find out more about him but nothing on the overseas deaths as I thought he may have died diving ???
                              Thanks Lyn have tried them before for Susans info but nothing, maybe they might with this lot though .

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                              • #16
                                well im off to bed now. i expect you to have solved this by the time i get up in 8 hours. by the way the first pack of after 8's was eaten with gusto

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                                • #17
                                  was that before or after the Ready Brek ? lol see you later

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                                  • #18
                                    how did you go with the marriages i sent you?
                                    do you think someone would go do a lookup for you at the mile end records. i suppose they are kept at the lma or kew.
                                    it might be worth asking on here or roots, you never know your look in a big city


                                    perth

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                                    • #19
                                      oop sory Martyn meant to say no nothing to do with them I'm afraid but thanks

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                                      • #20
                                        so what do you know about the son charles. have you got his death cert,marriage cert etc

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