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  • Prooving or dis-prooving this story

    hi

    my step dad has always been led to believe that his great grandfather was one of the Lyons (as in the tea). His grandmothers name was Babette Elva Haines and i have found her birth reg with MMN as McCalla in 1917 (she died in 2004 and the date of birth matches). Unless she was taken away immediately and adopted, is this even a possibility to begin with?

    From the BMD i have found that the Haines' also had a son William in 1912 and another one Anthony in 1917.

    I think its quite possible that this is all a load of rubbish, but thought it would be interesting to find out
    Robyne


    Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

  • #2
    This web site seems to have a pretty good history of the Company and includes an archive index and a pensioners index - might be worth a look

    J. Lyons & Co.
    Sue

    Comment


    • #3
      excellent thanks very much. My SD also believed that there was some kind of court thing where the Lyons person wanted her to live with him, but she chose her adopted parents
      Robyne


      Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

      Comment


      • #4
        Lyons tea, as a brand, began in 1902 in Ireland. I guess it's possible that Babette's mother was Irish, in which case it's also possible she was related to the Lyons'.

        Not sure how easy it would be to find out, given it's Ireland.
        Tracy

        Comment


        • #5
          just taking a bit of a deeper look, Joseph Lyons had no children and died just after Babette was born, therefore he cannot have sought legal rights to his child (if she was indeed old enough to decide herself)
          Robyne


          Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

          Comment


          • #6
            Many years ago I worked for the Joe Lyons empire.

            It was a family business, extended family, and Haines is a name I remember as being one of the directors, possibly anglicised from Heinz or Heins.

            OC

            Comment


            • #7
              I found this, which might be where the Lyons comes in:

              Marriages Jun 1931
              Lyons Edwin N Haines/McCalla
              McCalla/Haines Dorothy Lyons
              Lambeth 1d 698
              Tracy

              Comment


              • #8
                Have we done this one before? I vaguely remember that the name was not McCalla, (sounds Irish) but Macalla (a Jewish name).

                OC

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have assembled quite a bit of the Gluckstein/Salmon tree - also associated with Joe Lyons (and Nigella Lawson) - while trying to work out if/how my niece's tree linked in. In fact, her g-g-father married Joe Lyons's first cousin, Elizabeth COHEN, and became a director of the firm.

                  Christine

                  ~~~~~~
                  In this context, researching: FRIEDMAN/FREEMAN (England, Oz, Pikallin in Lithuania), MARKS (England, Oz, NZ, Himbach-Limeshain in Germany), COHEN, JACOBS JONES, GOLDSMID, & GOLDBERG (Lithuania)
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ah, maybe we worked on yours, Christine?

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                      Ah, maybe we worked on yours, Christine?

                      OC
                      But I don't remember having McCalla / Macalla in the tree(s).

                      Christine

                      ~~~~~~~~~~
                      In this context, researching: FRIEDMAN/FREEMAN (England, Oz, Pikallin in Lithuania), MARKS (England, Oz, NZ, Himbach-Limeshain in Germany), COHEN, JACOBS JONES, GOLDSMID, & GOLDBERG (Lithuania)
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi OC

                        no definatly wasnt me i dont think?

                        thanks for the McCalla/Lyons link will take a look and see what i can find. Dorothy Mccalla/Haines could quite possibly be Babette's mother? I will try and hunt for a death although maybe a bit of a shot in the dark?
                        Robyne


                        Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There's a marriage:
                          1911 Dec-Q Gateshead
                          William HAINES (or Ernst H SCHUTS)
                          Dorothy McCALLA (or Charlotte RITCHIE)

                          Unfortunately the Gateshead local site's coverage of marriages doesn't include 1911.


                          Christine
                          Last edited by Christine in Herts; 23-06-09, 19:06.
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Christine

                            yes that is the marriage i have found. I have also found that William and Dorothy divorced in 1922 and a Harry Wright was named as co-respondant. im wondering if the story has been slightly changed and that after her parents divorced babette was then asked whether she would like to live with Dorothy or William. then her mother married the Lyons person (havent yet found a link to The Lyons) and so Babette has made up this great story about how Edwin Lyons was actually her father. There is also the possibility of Chinese Whispers and that the story has just got changed throughout the last 50 or so years. If Edwin was named as co-respondant i could understand, but as he wasnt i think this may have been a slight porky
                            Robyne


                            Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No, the Haines family were part of the Lyons family, so this might be where the story came from. She married one member of the Lyons family, then married Edwin Lyons.

                              It was not normal back in the 1920s to ask a child who she wanted to live with! Custody ALWAYS went to the father, especially where the mother had been unfaithful.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                i cant seem to find either Edwin Lyons or William George Haines at the mo, will try and have another hunt.

                                SD also mentioned that apparently she was one of the first cases where she was asked whether she wanted to live with one side or the other, although aged 4 i cant see that happening somehow.

                                im thinking that if i want to go further i am going to need some certs, certainly to confirm ages and parents
                                Robyne


                                Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Sometimes a co-respondent was a paid stranger!

                                  Divorce by mutual agreement was simply not allowed under English law at the time. She may already have been involved with Edwin Lyons but if he was cited as co-rspondent, then her injured husband could claim massive damages from him.

                                  Her first husband may have privately agreed to the divorce, (perhaps he too had someone else) but wanted her down on record as having committed adultery.

                                  I am really not sure why a Judge would ask a four-year old child at that time who she wanted to live with - children were not asked who they wanted to live with until well into the 1970s and 80s, when divorce law became more relaxed.

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    goodness its all so complicated!! if i could find Edwin or William Haines it might help narrow them down, but they seem to be very elusive!

                                    I have found a birth of a Yvonne Lyons with MMN as Mccalla in 1927 so looks like there was something going on long before they married!
                                    Robyne


                                    Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I suppose it's possible that William Haines wasn't part of the Lyons family and he agreed to a divorce because he got a nice fat payoff....

                                      OC

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        from edwin lyons?
                                        Robyne


                                        Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                                        Comment

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