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1871 Help to decipher please

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  • 1871 Help to decipher please

    Please could someone have a look at this.

    1871 England, Ref Class: RG10; Piece: 4006; Folio: 100; Page: 4; GSU roll: 846103.

    The places of birth have been transcribed as :
    Catherine Jones - Lean Hysilis, Derbyshire, England
    I think that 'Derbyshire' could be Denbighshire as in 1881 they are both shown as having been born in Wales. But what are the words after that???

    Ed Jones - Crowmars, Montgomeryshire, Wales
    Can't make head nor tail of that one!

    I have googled Lean Hysilis and Crowmars but nothing!
    Would appreciate any ideas!
    Many thanks
    jenny

  • #2
    I suspect that Lean Fysilis (which is what it looks like to me) is the enumerator's best effort at a Welsh name. I think that you're right about the county - but it's been rendered as "Denbyshire". The trick will be to speak the name in English, and imagine what the underlying Welsh name might be. For example. is "Lean" actually "Llan". And I feel I should know what "Fysilis" is supposed to be - just can't bring it to the front of my mind.

    The Montgomeryshire placename looks like Cemmaes or, more likely, Cernmaes. Once again, a guessing game as to teh underlying Welsh.

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, I think it could be Denbyshire and it looks like an F, not an H at the beginning of the last word, i.e. Lean Fysilis. Or Lean Fysilio?

      Is the other one Crommals?

      *off to Google*
      KiteRunner

      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

      Comment


      • #4
        There's a Cemaes on the Isle of Anglesey - but that's certainly not Montgomeryshire.

        Christine
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh, is it Llantysilio? Is / was that in Denbighshire?
          KiteRunner

          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

          Comment


          • #6
            The second letter of the Montgomeryshire one looks more like an r than an e, comparing to other letters on the same page, don't you think?
            KiteRunner

            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

            Comment


            • #7
              Lydia Ann shows up as b Hulme, M/cr in 1869 (on LancsBMD) - but that doesn't help with the others!

              Christine
              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

              Comment


              • #8
                I was thinking that it looked a bit like either a lower-case r or a mini-capital E - which is something I do, myself, when writing: sometimes a normal loop (e) sometimes a mini-capital. At first I thought that this enumerator didn't do that - but look at George ROWLAND in the family above the JONESes.

                But I agree that it looks like Fysilio.

                Christine
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Google says Llantysilio is in Denbighshire, so I think that one's sorted out.
                  KiteRunner

                  Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                  (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well those have given me some more googling ideas! Can't find either Edward or Catherine in 1891, if I could that might help as well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                      I was thinking that it looked a bit like either a lower-case r or a mini-capital E - which is something I do, myself, when writing: sometimes a normal loop (e) sometimes a mini-capital. At first I thought that this enumerator didn't do that - but look at George ROWLAND in the family above the JONESes.
                      Ah, so he does, I was looking at "Carnarvon" and thought the r in that was similar.
                      KiteRunner

                      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GENUKI lists Cemmaes as an alternative name for Cemais in Montgomershire.
                        KiteRunner

                        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Brilliant, Llantysilio is in the right neck of the woods as a daughter was later married in Ruabon, not far away.
                          I'll try 1891 using Cemais and Llantysilio as birth places.
                          Thanks so much Christine and Kiterunner.
                          Jenny
                          Last edited by jennyk; 09-05-09, 16:58.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The N Wales BMD site offers these possible marriages in Denbighshire (only looking 1867-1871):

                            1867 Ruthin, Civil Marriage:
                            JONES Edward ~ DURKIN Catherine (but his bride could be ROBERTS Susannah)

                            1868 Llangollen, St Collen:
                            JONES Edward ~ ROBERTS Catherine (or ARTHUR Elizabeth)

                            1868 Ruthin, Civil Marriage
                            JONES Edward ~ ROBERTS Catherine (or WILLIAMS Margaret)

                            1868 St Asaph, Civil Marriage:
                            JONES Edward ~ DAVIES Catherine

                            Which is only a bit helpful, being very indefinite.

                            Christine
                            Last edited by Christine in Herts; 09-05-09, 17:02.
                            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Christine

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                There's also this in the Manchester bit of Lancs BMD (only looking 1867-1871):

                                1868 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registar Attended:
                                JONES Edward ~ JONES Catherine

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  That looks like the marriage, thanks, I seem to remember a suggestion from a relative that Jones married Jones but they weren't sure. The first child was born 1869.
                                  Christine if you are still there, is there a ref for the Jones-Jones marraige please??
                                  Jenny
                                  Last edited by jennyk; 09-05-09, 17:12.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    It's free: http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/marrind.cgi

                                    The (local) ref is: CHO_RM/26/121

                                    If you want to order from the local office, you'd be best off applying via Lancs BMD, because that ref is a link to a pre-set-up application form.

                                    Christine
                                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Many thanks!
                                      Jenny

                                      Comment

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