Am I trying to make a connection that isn't there!

[JulesSmith]

Mary Ann Leary married William Fitzgerald in June 1889 Kensington
Marriage cert says:
Mary Ann age 22 was living at 61 St Clements Rd, Kensington, her father is named as Denis Leary. William's father is William.

1891 census at 61 St Clements Rd are David and Margaret Fitzgerald. William and Mary Ann are at a different address.

I ordered marriage cert for David Fitzgerald and Margaret O Leary m 1878.. David's father is Maurice, Margaret's father is Dennis.

So I can see David and William are not brothers, but could Margaret and Mary Ann be sisters? I know the surname is slightly different.
I can't see anything for 1871 census to connect the two women, by 1881 Margaret and David are already married.

William and Mary Ann had a son in Dec 1889, William's address is given as 61 St Clement's Rd.

Could they just simply all be living at the same address, and are in no way related?

Please help to unravel.

[rithompson]

There's nothing to connect them on 1971 census? Did Mary Ann have a sister called Margaret?

[JulesSmith]

I don't know if she had a sister or not, I can't even locate a birth cert. I sent off for the most likely one but wrong father.

These Fitzys and Learys are driving me crazy.

[Canadian Cousin]

Hi Jules,

Based on my experience, it's very possible that the names Leary and O'Leary refer to the same family. My maternal grandparents were O'Sullivans, and very particular about including the O' as part of their surname, yet they're listed as Sullivans in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses (the latter is especially surprising, as it was supposed to be completed by the householder). Some of their children (they had eight) were registered at birth as O'Sullivans, while they remainder were registered as Sullivans. I'm sure that my mother would have blamed this discrepancy on the attitude of the English authorities towards the Irish (esp. poor Irish Catholics), but whether it was that or something other reason, I don't know. Similarly, I don't think you can read anything into the spelling difference between Denis and Dennis - whoever filled out the marriage certs would most likely have used whichever spelling they preferred, without asking the bride.

Do Margaret and Mary Ann give the same place of birth on the censuses? What profession is listed for Denis/Dennis on the marriage certs? Are they similar, or at least compatible? Have you been able to find him on any census?

Good luck -

Tim

[JulesSmith]

They are very good questions Tim, and as soon I get in from work I'll look at the certs to see what the father's occupation is. I should have thought to do that anyway.

I have found one census for 1871 that might be him, although I have no details on him so I can't really tell
Class: RG10; Piece: 164; Folio: 28; Page: 49
his wife is Margaret and they have a 6 year old daughter Mary A, and that puts her dob at 1865 which is roughly right. However, if the Margaret mentioned in my original post is the sister, then she has already left home.

In the only census that could possible be Mary Ann and William for 1901 she says she is from Kensington.

[JulesSmith]

on 1891 Margaret says she is born Kensington.

[Janet]

I agree with Tim about the spellings particularly of Irish names. Many people left out the "O" before arriving in England and this had something to do with the fact that some of the Catholic Irish turned to protestantism at the time of the famine in order to obtain food, as this was one of the criteria to obtain food in Ireland at this time, become a protestant and you will be fed! But it was always hotly disputed by those who did not do this, and those that did turn protestant were considered traitors or "soupers" and families dropped the O's to distinguish themselves from those that they felt had betrayed them. My family of O'Neill in Tipperary becameNeale/Neil/Neill/Neal/Neile/Neille but reverted to O'Neill/O'Neil in better times. Similarly OH's family were Sullivans but reverted to O'Sullivans later on. O'Sullivan/Sullivan is a Cork name and so is O'Leary/Leary. All spellings of these names should be taken into account. No reason why two sisters should not marry into same family. I have 3 siblings from one family marrying 3 siblings from another family, also Irish except they married in Ireland.

You often found that Irish in London would end up in certain areas where they would find other Irish, Kilburn is one area and parts of the East End of London and there are other areas and would then often marry a person who maybe came from the same area in Ireland, it was a way of easing into another country yet finding a familiar face.

Janet

[JulesSmith]

Thanks Janet.

I suppose I need to order a birth cert for Margaret now if I can find the birth. It wont make a big difference as I can't find Mary Ann's bc so can't compare mother's names, but I might end up with an address that will mean something maybe... she says hopefully :o)

[Janet]

Sorry Jules there is nothing at all certain with Irish Family History, which is even worse than English FH, but yes same address may well help you. Good luck, as it sounds as though you need all the luck you can get!

For what its worth OH has a "Phillip Going" which on all census can only be found as born in Bridport, but no sign of a birth. Marriage cert shows Edmund as father. Census and naval records show a consistent 1850 birth. OH suddenly remembered after about 10+years that his grandmother reckoned he was born in Cork! Had a look on Irish Foundation Site yesterday, which I do not rate very highly, to find a Philip Going baptised to an Edmund Going 1850 Cork county near where he thought was correct! Now with a name like Going, not as common as Sullivan/Leary and Neill we may well have found the correct one. Will do some checking when next in Ireland. Interesting enough, and never seen this before, father's name there with no mother!!

Janet

[JulesSmith]

Sorry Jules there is nothing at all certain with Irish Family History, which is even worse than English FH, but yes same address may well help you. Good luck, as it sounds as though you need all the luck you can get!

Janet

I think you are probably right. A big helping of luck is needed