Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hardest Brickwall... Finally Down?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hardest Brickwall... Finally Down?

    Apologies in advance for the length of this. Hope not to lose you all!

    My 3 x Great grandfather James has proved the most difficult and determined brick wall on my tree since starting out. I have in last fortnight made a determined effort to break through, and think I may have had some success, but would appreciate some feedback.

    The first definite source I have is the 1851 Census where he is 25 a Journeyman Cooper at Drumblade, living at his place of employment. He was married in nearby Huntly two years later in 1853, (unfortunately just before civil registration started), so no parents details, though the record does confirm the 1851 census, that he was resident in Drumblade at that time. He moved in with 3 x great gran, and her widowed mother at their home 7 Back Street, Huntly, Aberdeenshire and lived there for rest of life, dying in 1892.

    His death cert does not give any clue of his parantage as his adult son left the box blank, clearly did not know. So the sources left for him are the census 1851-1891 and his oldest sons 1855 baptism, which being an early one does give an age and place of birth for James. Both the two registration sources, death cert and sons baptism, agree on his age and give an approx birth year of 1823. Four of the five Census put it between 1824-26. Only the last 1891 Census, 18 months before his death, when he was ill and being cared for by a daughter, gives a different later date of around 1830, possibly filled out by his daughter in error, so most likely to be wrong.

    As for his place of birth three of the Census he gives Aberdeen City (once stating specificly St Nicholas Parish). However on one he gives Fraserburgh. This alternative is also supported by his sons baptism where he gives Rosehearty (now a suberb of Fraserburgh). The 1861 Census gives Fyvie, but this is the only Census likely not to have been filled out by him, his elderly m-i-law was still head of household. Fyvie is not too far from Drumblade, so i suspect she made a mistake.

    So this leaves a likely scenario of a James Gordon born 1823-26, either Aberdeen City or Rosehearty, Fraserburgh.

    Now there are 26 James Gordons baptised in Aberdeenshire 1820-1830. If you narrow down to those two places you are left with just three. (I have been through all the other 23 anyway and accounted for them all!). These are:

    James Gordon, son of Charles Gordon Elizabeth Sinclair, baptised 21 January 1828, Pitsligo (*note: Rosehearty was in this parish).

    James Gordon, son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen, baptised 8 April 1828, Aberdeen City

    James Gordon, son of John Gordon and Agnes Duncan, baptised 4 February 1829, Aberdeen City


    Forgetting the Census for a moment. The first and last are fairly easily discounted. First married a Mary Trail, lived in Rosehearty all his life, and died there 1914. The last was an Iron Turner. He married a Latticia Benison, and also stayed put whole life, dieing in Aberdeen 1870.

    That leaves the son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen. No marriage cert or death cert for him in Scotland.

    Now a cousin in America, great grandson of James, who sadly recently died, believed that James was indeed the son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen. This info was given to him by his mother, a grandaughter of James, who emigrated to U.S.A in her twenties.

    Initially I accepted this must then be correct...but I'm begining to question this. First the date is on late side, secondly she was only 10 when he died, if his adult son did not have any idea of his parantage, would his 10 year old grandaughter know such exact details? By far the biggest problem comes with the Census. On the 1851 the son of John and Mary Ewen is still living with them, right age 22, a ships carpenter, in Aberdeen City (Greyfriars parish not St Nicholas). My James is in Drumblade, aged 25, working as a journeyman Cooper!

    I'm now thinking his grandaughter must have had some early research conducted before the Censi were available. As shown above using just parish records and certs, you WOULD be left with that James as only option. Admittably he does dissapear without trace after 1851, but, as a ships carpenter is it too much of a stretch of imagination to think he went abroad, emigrated?

    It is not just the big problem on the 1851 Census that leads me to question the family tale. The 1841 also throws up a much more likely alternative James


    George Street, Aberdeen West Parish , Aberdeenshire

    GORDON Isabella F 50 Aberdeenshire
    GORDON Margret F 20 Aberdeenshire
    GORDON James M 17 Cooper Apprentice Aberdeenshire
    ROSS Isabella F 1 Aberdeenshire
    EWEN John M 1 Aberdeenshire
    MATHEWS Elizabeth F 35 Aberdeenshire


    I have several reasons for thinking this my James:

    1) The age is exact match for the only two registration sources I have for my James, his sons baptism and his death cert. (James son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen never matches any source age wise, either reg docs or census.)

    2) The adress George Street is part of the St Nicholas ecclasiastical district of the city. (The adress James, son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen is living at in 1851 is not.)

    3) My James is aged 25 and a Journeyman Cooper on the 1851 census and thereafter a Master. Therefore he must have completed an apprenticeship by that point. Boys usually started apprenticeships aged 12-15, so you would expect him, whoever he is, to already be an apprentice cooper in 1841.

    4) The 1851 Census shows Isabella living there still, described as a widow, aged 63, birth parish Old Pitsligo. Old Pitsligo is part of Rosehearty. This neatly ties in the two different places of birth given consistently by my James, St Nicholas, Aberdeen City, and Rosehearty, Fraserbugh.

    5) A search of Pitsligos registers, show only two or three Isabellas born at that time. Only one Isabella Watt, exactly right age born 1787, was married to a Gordon. She married an Alexander Gordon in Pitsligo 1809 and they have two children in the registers a John, born 1809, and Margaret 1811. They then disappear from the register. (Note the 1841 James the apprentice cooper seemingly does hves an older sibling Margaret, even if age doesn't match exact)

    6) There is no death cert for Isabella Gordon. She almost certainly died in the 'black hole' between 1851 Census and start of civil registration in 1855. This means by 1855 the time my James Gordon was married and had first child, James Gordon the apprentice cooper of 1841, would have had both parents dead, and perhaps at best only one sibling, who may or may not have survived either. This offers a plausible explanation for many questions I have with my James Gordon, why he'd moved away from Aberdeen City, why his children had no idea of his parentage, and why none of his family ever appear on any of the records with him. In contrast the 1861 census shows James the son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen, had a mother still alive and several adult siblings. His mother lived until the 1880's.

    7) The great grandson in America had the info the family were at the time Episcopslians, non conformist. The obvious question then is why was James, son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen, who they believe our ancestor, and all his siblings baptised in Established church? If true though it would nicely explain the lack of any baptism for James, the coopers apprentice, son of Isabella.

    Is my alternate case plausible? Am I right to debunk the family tale?........
    Last edited by Richard; 22-04-09, 23:00.

  • #2
    I don't know if you're going to get a definite answer either way, Richard - all you can do is weigh up what you've got, decide which you think most likely but still keep an eye out for any evidence that might not fit.

    Have you tried any other possible sources - wills? other parish records? Any continuity in names?

    Comment


    • #3
      The only thing I have not yet chased up Lindsay is the apprenticeship records, though I've made enquiries. Hopefully these will confirm he was the only apprentice..maybe hoping too much to think might give his fathers name.

      Anyway yes chased up all other routes..spent much money and many hours documenting EVERY James Gordon, baptised, every one on the census, and accounting for them all.

      I'm convinced mine was not baptised in C of S. There are several others on the census likewise with no baptism, but in their case their death certs, marriage certs etc were able to pin them down. The branch of his family in U.S.A use the Scottish Episcopalian Church to this day, so I suspect this part is true, and he was perhaps baptised there, hence no record on Scotlands People IGI.

      Anyway was just hoping to get opinions, I think the case I've made is strong for the alternate James right age, right place, right occupation, his mother linking him to both places of origin he gives on Census. None of those things can be said for the other James..but of course don't want to discount him totally. As a ship carpenter though I'm convnced he probably went to sea or emigrated.
      Last edited by Richard; 22-04-09, 20:02.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Richard View Post
        The first definite source I have is the 1851 Census where he is 25 a Journeyman Cooper at Drumblade, living at his place of employment. He was married in nearby Huntly two years later in 1853, (unfortunately just before civil registration started), so no parents details, ...
        I don't understand this - civil registration began on 1st July 1837. Its possible that not everyone followed the rules though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Maggie, I think 1837 was England & Wales.
          Civil reg was introduced in Scotland & Ireland at a later date, in the 1850's.

          Richard's chap was from Scotland.

          Jay
          Janet in Yorkshire



          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
            Maggie, I think 1837 was England & Wales.
            Civil reg was introduced in Scotland & Ireland at a later date, in the 1850's.

            Richard's chap was from Scotland.

            Jay

            ahhh well that serves me right for not paying attention - thank you Janet.



            ...and me with as many Scots ancestors that I have not to realise what Richard was saying!

            Apologies to Richard.

            Comment


            • #7
              Richard, I think you've done your best to try and pin down all possibilities. Sometimes that vital PR entry to tie up the loose ends proves really elusive. (I've had a couple for 20+ years and am hoping that the Norfolk Baptism project will sort out one ancestor and Freereg the other.)
              In the meantime, having tried to follow up and eliminate all other candidates, I have had to bite the bullet and say "I'm pretty sure these are my ancestors, because ...... BUT I remain open minded and am open to other ideas, IF someone can disprove my theories."

              The apprenticeship records I have on file do all give the father's name, but that is in England.
              (As an aside, it seems my paternal grandfather was never baptised as a child, although all his siblings were. Luckily my mother remembered him being confirmed in middle age and recalled a bit of a to do about no apparent baptism records for him as a child.)
              Good luck.

              Jay
              Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 22-04-09, 19:43.
              Janet in Yorkshire



              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello Janet

                I'm lucky in a way with him being Scottish, as if he was English no way could I afford the 80+ certs I've spent covering all the James Gordons of right age, baptism, marriages deaths etc over past few years. That said I havn't had any where near this trouble in England pre civil reg research, even my Irish relies were easier to track than that, have them back to the late 1780's! It's the strange thing with Scotland isn't it, the records after 1855 are so much cheaper to buy, so much more detailed than English, but before that point they are very patchy, the parish records seem nowhere near as good or complete as majority of English ones.

                I will keep the fingers crossed with the apprenticeship records. I have contacted Aberdeen Archives waiting for a relpy though. Only just confirmed they exist at all...

                Comment


                • #9
                  For what it's worth - I'm sure a ship's carp could make a passable barrel, but doubt if a cooper could make a passable ship!

                  The Scottish side of my tree is knee deep in ship's carps, none of whom ever appear to have been apprenticed, but that's irrelevant.

                  The only Cooper I have in Scotland makes a majestic progress from apprentice, to journeyman to master.

                  In other words I think ship's carps and coopers were seen at that time as mutually exclusive trades. I think that alone would lean me towards the family you favour.

                  OC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hello O.C

                    Thanks for that. My James must have been apprenticed, he was a journeyman and then a master. I'm hoping Aberdeen Archives will do a search for James Gordons apprenticed between 1830-50. In an ideal world they'll have parent info on the record. If that is case and there is none with parents 'John Gordon and Mary Ewen'..case closed, he cannot be our man. I can't find any other evidence to back up the family tale that he was whatsoever, but at least 7 seperate points of evidence against. Still I'd more than happy be proved wrong...just love to finally know one way or other!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oooh, I think that might be a bit dangerous - lack of evidence never proved anything!

                      I have built up a very plausible case for the parentage of my 2 x GGF. However, I lack that one final piece of evidence which would make the link between the plausible candidate and proof that he is the same man that I seek!

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, I have a similar situation with my 4xg-grandfather. I am 99% certain I have the right parents for him but if only I could find a baptism for him or a family will that mentioned him and gave his relationship to other people I could be certain! Unfortunately his family were non-conformists and I think his birth or baptism record must be one of those that was taken by the minister when he moved to another area and is now lost.
                        KiteRunner

                        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "Oooh, I think that might be a bit dangerous - lack of evidence never proved anything"

                          Whilst that is true. My James was a journeyman by 1851. He'd been apprenticed by that point. James the son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen is on the same census serving an apprentice as ships carpenter. As one of the 'seven trades' the apprenticeships for coopers do exist, so a lack of one for John Gordon and Mary Ewens son by 1851 is about hardest evidence I am ever likely to get that he wasn't the same person. Add that to the other 7 points that suggests he's a different man, its fairly concrete. Ideally of course a marriage or death cert for the son of John Gordon and Mary Ewen would be concrete proof, but I'm convinced his job led him abroad, and that lack of certs for him, and lack of baptism for James son of Isabella, has led someone at some point to match the two wrongly together.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Richard

                            Sorry to labour the point, but if you fail to find an apprenticeship record, that really only means you have failed to find an apprenticeship record, not that it does not exist.

                            However, you hopefully WILL find one and the matter will be resolved! Let us know what the outcome is.

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re your ship's carpenter, this is from the Royal Naval Museum site:

                              Carpenter
                              Carpenter was responsible for the maintenance of the hull and masts of the ship. He was unusual in that many passed most of their careers as civilian employees of the Navy Board in the dockyards and only partly as officers on ships. The majority qualified as shipwrights in the dockyards before going to sea. In 1918, Carpenters were renamed Warrant Shipwrights when their work ceased to be solely timber. Carpenters were one of the five standing officers appointed to a ship. Their rank did not get transferred to commissioned status.
                              So he probably did go to sea.

                              (Quite a few of my family were shipwrights/ship's carpenters, so I've looked into it before.)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Blackberry

                                As I said before, most of my Scottish side were ship's carps.

                                One of my 3 x GGF's, a ship's carp, is never seen on any census from 1841-1901 but he most certainly existed as he fathered thirteen children with his wife and obediently died at home!

                                OC

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  :Sorry to labour the point, but if you fail to find an apprenticeship record, that really only means you have failed to find an apprenticeship record, not that it does not exist."

                                  OC, as I understand it not neccesarily so. Of course in case of many or most proffession that would be true, but not so for Coopers, they had to take their apprenticeship with the Burgh masters as one of the seven trades in Scotland, so they will be both entered on the roll for the burgh, and have a record. They could not be apprenticed outside of this scheme. Thats if I have understood it correct. So it will in theory prove if James son of John and Mary Ewen had or had not taken one by 1851. If he hadn't he cannot be my man who was journeyman, well on his way to becoming a master, by that point.
                                  Last edited by Richard; 23-04-09, 13:29.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Thanks for that info Blackberry. That at least adds weight to my theory. I do have an unnacounted for James Gordon, born in Aberdeenshire, right age, who emigrated to Canada, had a family and died there. Unfortunately his family have no info on his parentage or occupation...but I think he may be the missing man. If the apprenticeship records don't prove fruitful..chasing him up is next course of action.

                                    Comment

                                    Working...
                                    X