John George Penny

[stuart Penny]

I am trying to find the death of John George Penny. Born 1805 West Camel Somerset.
He is referred to on Census as both John and George. The last mention is 1871 when he was living at Rimpton.
Was wondering if anyone else could do better!?

[niftynannie]

How about this death

Births Dec 1879
Penny George
Sherborne
5a 373

[Gerald]

I have seen this message and an earlier one (to Vivienne). We share much of this ancestry and I have points concerning them which you may wish to consider. This is my first excursion into this site and I am almost lost - so how do we proceed?
Gerald Warr.

[Vivienne]

Hello Gerald, welcome to FTF.

I go to Somerset Record office one day a week to do look ups for folk who can't get there, let me know if I can help you at all.

We have a few people looking for Pennys, take a look at the Gedcom, upload your own & see if you match with any on there.

[stuart Penny]

Hi Gerald,

Welcombe to the site! I have been amazed by the friendly goodwill shown by the members here. In particular Vivienne who has performed many searches at the Somerset Records Office on my behalf and brought back much needed information. Thanks again Viv!

I happy to share information as this can onlt benifit us all. However I have not yet uploaded my Gedcom to the site. I will do so (if I can work out how!).

You can post messages openly in the manner we are using now or by private message if you so wish. I tend to do this to pass a lot of information.

I am also on Ancestry.co.uk my tree is simply called 'The Penny Family Tree'

Hope this helps

Kind Regards

Stu

[Christine in Herts]

I have seen this message and an earlier one (to Vivienne). We share much of this ancestry and I have points concerning them which you may wish to consider. This is my first excursion into this site and I am almost lost - so how do we proceed?
Gerald Warr.

Welcome to FTF, Gerald

Apologies for drifting off-topic, but...
Are all your WARRs from the Somerset area, or do you have any from Oxfordshire?

Christine

[Gerald]

Christine: No, my Warr family is generally restricted to North Dorset.
Vivienne: Thankyou. I will remember that When I was first researching this particular Penny family I used the Somerset Archives research facility and they gave me good information covering 1840-60. I am willing to share of course.
Stuart: I can't find the death either. The individual you are looking for was never John George. He was John but suddenly (c 1867) became George.
I think you have the wrong date of death for Eliza. I have the certificate (1867). Younger George married twice. We are descended from the second marriage - to Martha Hann. I have a lot more.

[stuart Penny]

Gerald,
With regard to the name, I agree. I have located him as John up until the 1871 Census when he appears as George. Eliza is not mentioned in this Census. She is on the 1861 Census though, so this fits with your comments. As you have the certificate I have edited the data I have on Ancestry. Thank you for that.
Younger George 1843 - 1905. Married Sarah Nott in 1864. She died 1872.
George then married Martha Hann in 1873.
They had the following children,
Ernest J Penny 1873
Lucy Jane Penny 1877
Robert Charles Penny 1879
Georgina Penny 1882
Theodore Jack Penny 1884

Robert is my Gt Grandfather. He died 1915
His son George Henry 1905 - 1979 is my Grandfather
His son Michael is my father.

The only certificate I have is for Roberts death, so other dates are taken using Census as source.

I need to go and eat! so will post again later.

Regards

Stu

[Gerald]

Good. I agree with your information. I am descended from Ernest John (d 1922 in a tree felling accident at Delcombe, near Milton Abbas). I have comprehensve information on this branch of the family which you can have if you want it, but if you feel it is too remote I shall not mind. My descent is from Ernest John's daughter, Doris Annie who married Reginald Leonard Warr. They are my parents.

I have not to date been able to trace the Pennys further back than the marriage of Charles and Hannah (Biles) at West Camel in 1904. Similarly I have not reached back in the Hann family beyond the births of Lot and Betty (1770s).

I have one nit-picking problem - the death of the younger George. I am sure it was in 1905 at Shepton Mallet, but the informant was the Coroner and there is nothing on the certificate that ties him 100% to the right family. The Coroner's reports have been destroyed and a recent newspaper search has not produced anything. Somerset Archives checked the address given on the certificate but could not make any connections. Martha died in 1914 in the workhouse but she had been there only a week.

Do you want anything more on Martha and her family? If you had not found it yet - she had two illegitimate children. Ann (1881 Census) was one of them.

You may be interested to know that my branch of the family changed the spelling of their surname to Penney in about 1916. I think my grandmother did it!

I seem not to have indicated my location. It is Wirral.

[stuart Penny]

Yes I would like to add your branch to my tree. It shows the wider family.

I have nothing on the Hanns other than Martha's Child Anne, who is recorded as being 18 years in 1881. (W, Dau)

Interesting that the spelling of the surname was changed. I wonder what prompted that!

I am sure you are aware that Charles Penny was baptised at West Camel on 25th Dec 1778.
He married (as you have said) Hannah Biles. 25th Oct 1804. I am aware of two children John born 1805 (our ancestor) and Mary Anne born 1808. There may well be others!

I think Charles father is
John Penny bn 1754. (Dd May 1816) He married Elizabeth Knight at West Camel 5 April 1777. They had 4 children, Charles bn 1778, George bn 1783, Anne bn 1786, Edward bn 1791.

I have not gone any further back at this stage. (Vivienne was instrumental in finding this latest information.)

I look forward to your thoughts.

Stu

[Gerald]

Penny and Hann

Herewith my main notes as promised. I see I have 1874 as George's death but I don't know why I thought that was correct. I keep a note of every source but that one seems to have slipped by. These notes do not include the details you sent in your last note.
My record of my branch of the family is too big to send by this route. I think the only way is by post for which I need your postal address.

My 3-great Grandparents.(Fifth generation before myself).

PENNY/BILES/HANN/LANGDON
Charles Penny married Hannah Biles on 25th October, 1804 at West Camel; parents of John Penny. Resident at West Camel in 1805.
The parents of Robert Hann could have been Lot (1777-1842) and Betty Hann (1776 or 7-1852). Betty was born at Folke, was living with Robert and his family there in 1851, aged 74; and died there. Lot was a brickmaker. [I have a copy of his apprenticeship indentures - in husbandry].

My Great-great Grandparents.
John (or George) Penny (born 1805 at West Camel; d 1874); father of George Penny; labourer.. Resident in Rimpton, Somerset from 1842 to 1867at least. Carter. Married to Eliza Langdon (1798 -1871) or 1815-1867 (to be resolved)
Robert Hann (1815 -1883); labourer; illiterate; father of Martha Hann. Married to Mary Ann Lane (1816 or 1818-1883). Living at Folke in 1861 and 1881
The Hann family were first at Yeovil, where Robert was born, but were at Folke in 1851 and 1861 (Census)
Siblings of John/George Penny. Mary Ann baptised 21st February, 1808; Susannah baptised 18th November, 1810 (Rimpton)


My Great-Grandparents
George Penny (1842 - 1905); named as father of Ernest John Penny on the latter’s marriage certificate. Farmer’s labourer. Further confirmation of the date of death is desirable. Home address at time of death might be 3 New Street, Shepton Mallet.
[First marriage (22nd October, 1864) was to Sarah Nott (1835-1872), formerly Simmonds, by whom he had five children. Sarah died on 23rd April,1872.]
On 21st March, 1873 at Sherborne, married Martha Hann, glover, (1842 -1914); mother of Ernest John Penny - both resident at that time in Sherborne.
Siblings of George: Maria, (b.1836); John, (1838); possibly William, (1840 and died young); Elizabeth. (baptised 1842). Mary (1842 or 5); Elizabeth and Mary were both baptised in 1842 according to the Rimpton records. They could not both have been new born babies at baptism.
William (1847); Henry (1850); Ellen (1854). (At the 1881 Census,William aged 34 was at Rimpton, married to Sarah, 37 born at Stony Stratford. Henry - agricultural labourer - was at Evercreech married to Emily, 33, born at Milton Clevedon) but at Wells in 1891
Siblings of Martha: Ann (b.1837) and Thomas (1840), both born at Yeovil; Lot (1845), John (1847), Robert (1849), George (1852), Eliza (1858) (Mitchell - death certificate of Robert Hann), Emily (1861) born at Folke (1851 Census). The 1861 Census says that the last six were born at Alweston (adjacent to Folke).
**Martha also had two illegitimate children - a daughter, Eleanor Ann (1863), and a son, Edwin T. (1869) (1871- and 1881 Censuses: Folke and Emborough)..(Eleanor) Ann married James Lintern, both recorded at the home of George Penny in 1881, married in June of that year and lived at Purse Caundle.
Father of Sarah: Robert Simmonds, carpenter.

This branch of the Penny family moved around a great deal. George was born in Sherborne and Martha in Yeovil. George and his first wife, Sarah, lived in several villages near Sherborne. George and Martha were married in Sherborne, but then went to Emborough, north of Shepton Mallet. They returned to Castle Cary and then Purse Caundle (1881). Ten years later they were at Evercreech and in 1901 at Shepton Mallet. Martha died in the workhouse there, despite having family at Radstock and Milton Clevedon.

[Gerald]

Stuart: I posted a note on this thread giving information about Martha Hann and her family but it has not got into the system. Could you give me your address (postal or e-mail) so that I can send you all the information I promised?

[stuart Penny]

Sorry for the delay !

Sorry Gerald,

I have been on holiday with my family, so have not been aware of your posts.
Thanks for the latest. We are both clearly on the right track.

I will send you my address details via Private message.

Kind Regards

Stu

[Gerald]

Thankyou for your address. I'll send my information but it won't be instant. There are too many other things going on!