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Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 17:19
Hi,

I'm trying to find the birth certificate for Mary Ann O'Brien b11/2/1844 (my Gt Gt Grandmother) According to the census she was born in Bethnal Green, although I'm not sure as I've been told the family may have come from Ireland! She married Alfred Edmunds, I have the marriage cert (1867, Dec, Bethnal Grn, 1c, 748) and it shows her father as Charles O'Brien, but I've really hit a brick wall now!! Can anyone help me trace the birth cert?

Thanks for any help, Carole.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 17:24
Welcome to Family Tree Forum :)

It might be easier to find her on a census after the marriage first as there should be a greater number of people to search for!

What details do you have on Mary Ann's child who was also your ancestor? (name, dob and place etc) What about her husband, Alfred, - what info do you have on him?

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 17:25
Ignore what I said - I added a "not" into one of your sentences that wasn't really there!! I'll have a look now............

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 17:26
Do you have an occuation for Charles?

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 17:43
Having not been able to find her before the marriage I tried afterwards, but I can't see a Mary Edmunds b Bethnal Green that fits.

Have you got a census reference for her at all?

Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 20:39
Having not been able to find her before the marriage I tried afterwards, but I can't see a Mary Edmunds b Bethnal Green that fits.

Have you got a census reference for her at all?
I have found the family on the 1891 census RG12; Piece: 250; Folio 155; Page 31 this one shows her born in Holborn - 1901 census RG13; Piece: 280; Folio: 164; Page: 8 this one says Shoreditch, but I've got a family bible that indicates she was born in Bethnal Green! The writing on their marriage cert is almost unreadable & unfortunately I can't make out what the occupation of Charles is. I have her date of death as 30/1/1931 and her husband Alfred died 3/3/1931.

Her husband Alfred was a Cabinet Maker by trade and the Edmunds family all lived in and around the Shoreditch area. They had 6 children the youngest May Victoria being my Gt Grandmother. Thanks for your help.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 21:10
Deaths Mar 1931

Edmunds Alfred 81 Hackney 1b 604
Edmunds Mary A 86 Hackney 1b 590

The above would appear to be their death registrations.

Do you know who wrote the entries in the Bible?

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 21:17
I think she may say Holborn in 1911. I've found Alfred the fishmonger in the index and Holborn seems to be the birthplace of his wife.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 21:23
I'm wondering is this is them in 1881?

Alfred EDMOND Head M 30 Shopkeeper General Beth Green, Middlesex
Mary Ann EDMOND Wife M 30 Beth Green, Middlesex
Mary Ann EDMOND Daur U 11 Scholar Beth Green, Middlesex
Emma EDMOND Daur 6 Scholar Beth Green, Middlesex
George EDMOND Son 3 Scholar Beth Green, Middlesex
Amelia EDMOND Daur 9 m Beth Green, Middlesex
Lucy WOOLF Niece U 13 Scholar Beth Green, Middlesex
Emma NEWTON Serv U 16 Domestic Servant Beth Green, Middlesex

69 Mount St, Bethnal Green.

I expect you know if those are the right children?

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 21:28
We need to sort out who Lucy Woolf's parents are!

Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 21:29
Thanks for the refernces. No, not sure who wrote the entries, I have only recently become it's latest 'guardian'. The bible is inscribed 'to Mary Ann Edmunds - October 1883' Looking at the writing I would guess it was completed around that time as the last child was born in 1883. This was the last entry until the next generation took over.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 21:35
Her husband Alfred was a Cabinet Maker by trade and the Edmunds family all lived in and around the Shoreditch area. They had 6 children the youngest May Victoria being my Gt Grandmother.

He was a fishmonger in 1901 and 1911 though and a general dealer in 1891??

Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 21:37
Yep, that's my family in 1881. I've never heard of a Lucy Woolf though. I will need to research this one to find out who she is. 69 Mount Street is the address on my GtGrandmother's birth cert in 1883.

Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 21:44
Alfred was a cabinet maker on his marriage cert and I have been told he made pieces of furniture for the family. I also know his daughter Emma married James Murray a Fishmonger/Salesman in 1892. They ran a fish shop which caught fire in the 1930's (the family bible being one of the only things to survive!) It is quite possible that Alf worked with his daughter & son in law.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 21:47
Ah, I've found him being a cabinet maker!

1871 RG10; Piece: 501; Folio: 35; Page: 23

Ancestry have their surname as Emonds.

I see on this one Mary is 33 which sets her dob back a bit if it's correct (doubtful!). Alfred is 23.

Mary says Holborn in 1871 for place of birth!

Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 21:55
I only have Alfred's dob as 1850 no more info on this yet, but Mary Ann definitely b11 Feb 1844. The death you found for me confirm these dates.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 22:00
I only have Alfred's dob as 1850 no more info on this yet, but Mary Ann definitely b11 Feb 1844. The death you found for me confirm these dates.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say definitely, but that's what's in the bible!!

The age at death might have come from looking in the bible!!

Anyway, I've been looking at Mary O,Briens without any age restriction. No luck yet.

This business if the occ for Charles being impossible to read - is that because the writing is tricky or because it's a poor copy?

Tree Tracer
14-04-09, 22:05
Very good copy, but very 'tricky' handwriting. Thanks again for your help.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 22:07
Have you got a scan of the cert? You can post up a portion on here and then others could offer their opinions!

What was Alfred's father's name? (I'm not going offtrack - really)

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-04-09, 22:13
Who are the marriage witnesses?

(I'm not having any luck with Lucy Woolf! I was desparately hoping her mother might turn out to be another O'Brien!)

Jammy Dodger
15-04-09, 01:39
Best I could find

Births Dec 1868
WOOLF Clara Lucy Whitechapel 1c 372

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-04-09, 10:11
Best I could find

Births Dec 1868
WOOLF Clara Lucy Whitechapel 1c 372

Yes, I looked at that one, but I couldn't find her in 1871. There's a marriage for that name, which I've not investigated, but there's also a marriage of a plain Lucy in Islington before 1891 and that bride fits for age too (found her after marriage to Ernest Binyon or Benyon) and she says she was born in Spitalfields. Why can't they be straightforward?

Tree Tracer
15-04-09, 10:43
Have you got a scan of the cert? You can post up a portion on here and then others could offer their opinions!

What was Alfred's father's name? (I'm not going offtrack - really)

Hi there, I've attached a copy of the marriage cert showing both fathers for Alfred & Mary and their occupations. Hope someone can help with deciphering their names and occupations. I think one of them is a 'Piano Forte Maker'.

I would really like to know the occuation of Charles O'Brien (bottom right).

Thank you.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4959/edmundsscan.jpg

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-04-09, 13:13
That's really difficult, isn't it?!!!

*passes, in favour of everyone else*

Phoenix
15-04-09, 14:48
Any capital Ws in the cert? I could make a case out for Waiter.

The writer looks as if he simply leaves blots all over the place, but the vowels look like ai, I assume the crossed upright is a t and the last two letter of Maker look identical.

Tree Tracer
15-04-09, 20:47
Any capital Ws in the cert? I could make a case out for Waiter.

I've checked the cert and can't see any Ws.

I also thought that the end of the word may have been 'ter' and looking at other letters on the cert the 1st one may be an 'S'. Would you agree that both father's are named Charles? any help with the other names for Charles Edmunds (the top one) would be very much appreciated. Thanks

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-04-09, 21:21
It looks like Charles something James Edmunds. Having looked through the deaths and marriages on FreeBMD for Charles Edmunds in Middlesex, London and Surrey and looking at the ones with more than one forename, there's nothing that fits at all!! I've also been looking for Charles as a piano maker or associated occupation etc in 1861/71/81 with no luck.

Who were the marriage witnesses?

Mary from Italy
16-04-09, 01:09
Could the second occupation be "Theater"?

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 09:20
could the top name be Charles Wm something?

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 09:21
TT can you put a bit more of the cert on here so we can compare words and letters etc.

Tree Tracer
16-04-09, 10:16
Hi everyone, thanks for all your help and suggestions. I've added the remainder of the marriage certificate. I thought I was quite good at reading the writing on old certs, but this one has really got me stumped!!

Thanks Carole


http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6849/19980757.jpg

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 10:40
Alfred's father is charles B? James Edmunds I think. The B is the same as bachelor and Bethnal

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 10:52
Looks to me like charles O'Brien's occupation is S**rater, the S looks the same as Spinster and the r looks the same as in charles. But this is really hard to decypher.

Alfred seems to be a cabinet bearer rather than cabinet maker... maybe I'm just not good at this LOL

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 11:00
I agree with your ideas Jules, but I think cabinet carver is what it says for Alfred Edmunds.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 11:05
There's a Charles Benjamin Edmunds marrying in Shoreditch in 1840. :confused: I don#'t feel happy with that - he is a clerk in 1841. Will have a look for him in 1851.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 11:13
That Charles Benjamin is a dealer in 1851 and 1861. He doed have a son called Alfred, but he is 7 (called Longman in 1851 which was Charles' wife's previous name - odd as they were married in 1840!) and 16 on those censuses which makes him older than on the later ones and closer in age to Mary O'Brien.

Not convinced, though Alfred wasn't a very common name.....

Of course it could be that Charles was trained to build pianos, but didn't do the job.

kylejustin
16-04-09, 11:18
maybe you could contact the local record office to see they have the parish register? oh it's london, so that might not work.

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 11:22
I agree with your ideas Jules, but I think cabinet carver is what it says for Alfred Edmunds.

Agreed, I thought carver earlier, then forgot what I thought I saw LOL (does that make sense?)

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 11:25
(does that make sense?)


definitely!

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 11:30
Hmmm......that Charles Benjamin.....

He died between 1861 and 1871 and the family are in Bethnal Green for both those censues, but I can't find his death reg yet.

In 1871 two of his sons - Francis and William aged 14 and 16 are both wood carvers. Coincidence?? (I wasn't really looking at the childrens occs before this, so I suppose I should go back :()

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 11:36
In 1871 two of his sons - Francis and William aged 14 and 16 are both wood carvers. Coincidence?? (I wasn't really looking at the childrens occs before this, so I suppose I should go back :()

The children keep leaving home before they get a proper job, so will have to spend more time on this!

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 11:59
this Mary Ann O'Brien is as difficult to find as my Mary Ann Leary !!!

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-04-09, 12:02
I know it's Mary we are supposed to be dealing with, but she is just too difficult altogether!! lol

JulesSmith
16-04-09, 12:22
Am I correct that the marriage took place in 1867? Therefore the only census with her maiden name and enough detail to identify her would be 1861... can't find anything.