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  • Wilson : Tate Marriage - even more confused

    I now have my great aunts marriage certificate and some elements are a bit confusing.

    My GA with Ruth Enid Wilson who married Frederick Tate 1939, no problem there. As rank or profession, he is down as an Instructor (of what?, what does this mean). For the residential addresses for the banns his is given as Kroonkelo, 20 Sinfin Lane, Sunshine Estate, Derby and yet she is down as Kroonkello, London Road - surely there would not have been two or its the age old thing of the suitcase at one address. His father was also a Frederick Tate who was a steelworker and we have Arthur Wilson (deceased) as a Commercial Traveller. For the witnesses it says Elizabeth Wilson m Shakespeare (does this mean she has remarried and was now calling herself Elizabeth Shakespeare). The other witness is an Alfred Wilson, therefore it would appear we now have a brother living in 1939, other than Thomas my GF.

  • #2
    Are you sure it says Kroonkel(l)o, it's such a bizarre word Derby has both a Sinfin Lane and a London Road
    J

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    • #3
      Did you get the cert from the GRO? If so, it may just be a copyist error. I have several marriage certs where the "facts" have been allocated to the wrong party - bride getting the groom's father, groom getting the bride's address, etc.

      On the other hand, my father's extended family always called their houses "Fern Bank" for some completely inexplicable reason. Maybe your bride and groom were related, if the addresses are indeed correct.

      You could ask the local RO to check their copy of the cert. this shouldn't cost you anything as you already have paid for the cert.

      OC

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      • #4
        I have looked again and one entry says "Kroonkelo" the other "Kroonkello". I am not familiar with Derby, but it could be a house name at the time. Are or were Sinfin Lane and London Road running parallel to one another perhaps?

        The thing I am more interested in are the witnesses. Elizabeth Wilson m Shakespeare on one line and Alfred Wilson on the other, I would not have though m Shakespeare was a witness in its own right. A 'R Wilkinson' was the Rector.

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        • #5
          All you get for a witness is their signature, so it sounds as if you have three witnesses there.
          Phoenix - with charred feathers
          Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

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          • #6
            So would the Ruth E Wilson born in 1912 and also the one registered as Ruth Tate that died in the 1970s be my great aunt?

            I don't know where to go from here, as I no longer have census access and can't afford to get it for the time being.

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            • #7
              Not really sure which of your threads to post this on but this was the first one I found, lol!

              I've had a look at the electoral registers and not much help but maybe a smidgen:

              1934/5 no entry for Kroonkelo
              1935/6 up to 1938/9:
              Bassetlaw Polling District L East Retford (South Ward)
              LONDON ROAD
              Rw Ow Wilson, Elizabeth Kroonkelo
              Rw -- Wilson, Ruth Enid Angel Do
              R -- Tate, Nicholas Fred Do

              R and Rw both mean Residence Qualification and Ow means Occupation Qualification. So that would mean that Elizabeth was the head of household. On the 1939/40 e roll there is no entry for Kroonkelo - a family called Cook seem to have moved in and changed the name of the house to Roadway.

              1936 Kelly's Directory of Notts:
              RETFORD EAST AND WEST
              Private residents
              Wilson Mrs Elizabeth, Kroon Kelo, London road.

              No entry listed for her in the 1932 or 1941 Kelly's.

              So it does look as though Elizabeth was probably Ruth's mother. Have you seen Ruth's name given as Ruth Enid Angel Wilson before? That "Angel" part might possibly be a clue. Or not.
              KiteRunner

              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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              • #8
                I know that Nicky (Fred) always used to affectionately call Ruth "Angel", as far as my Mum remembers. The press cutting she has of when Fred Tate left the hospital after his accident, mentions his fiancee Angel Wilson, therefore this has to be the right family. Didn't realise that Angel was her third name, just a nickname, as would appear Nicky.

                Fred Tate has his crash in June 1936 at Wimbeldon and I know Ruth/Angel visited him very often if not daily. Kroonkelo was probably bought by Elizabeth around 1936. Assuming Elizabeth was Ruth's mother and Thomas' too; Thomas bought them (Ruth and Elizabeth)a house in East Retford, presumably this was the house, unless it was the one before.
                Last edited by LorraineJ; 21-04-09, 15:38.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by LorraineJ View Post
                  So would the Ruth E Wilson born in 1912 and also the one registered as Ruth Tate that died in the 1970s be my great aunt?

                  I don't know where to go from here, as I no longer have census access and can't afford to get it for the time being.
                  I may be completely wrong, but wasn't the 1970's death I trawled for Ruth Elizabeth not Ruth Enid?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                    I may be completely wrong, but wasn't the 1970's death I trawled for Ruth Elizabeth not Ruth Enid?
                    I think Merry we assumed that the E stood for Elizabeth not Enid and at the time, we did not know her correct middle name. I think it was Kiterunner who put something along the lines of from the 1950s the recorders put the middle names as initials so they could get another amount of info in, on another thread.

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                    • #11
                      I have found a Ruth that died in Lincoln Mar 1976 7 1839 and it says she was born 18 Nov 1908, don't know whether its her or not.

                      Think the above could well be her, as I have found a Ruth Elizabeth Tate who died in Q3 Sept 1976, who we now know isn't right.
                      Last edited by LorraineJ; 21-04-09, 16:50.

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                      • #12
                        I think Merry we assumed that the E stood for Elizabeth not Enid and at the time
                        I would never assume an E stood for Elizabeth!!


                        This is the bit I remember writing on your previous thread:


                        There's a Ruth Elizabeth Tate who died in 1976 Q3 (searched from 1980 backwards) but her dob is 9th Sept 1913 and whilst there is a corresponding birth in Q4 1913 the mmn is Wilson which means this is more likely to be an illegitimate birth (unless a Wilson married a Wilson) and is, of course a long time after your Thomas Wilson would have been born.
                        So, the one I found was probably wrong as the one you found I didn't get too!

                        What about finding the 1908 girl in 1911?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LorraineJ View Post
                          I have found a Ruth that died in Lincoln Mar 1976 7 1839 and it says she was born 18 Nov 1908, don't know whether its her or not.

                          Think the above could well be her, as I have found a Ruth Elizabeth Tate who died in Q3 Sept 1976, who we now know isn't right.
                          Sorry, I didn't notice the last bit of the above!

                          Erm.......there's no Ruth E Wilson birth reg 1908 Q4 or 1909 Q1 :(

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                          • #14
                            Have we ruled out this family on the 1911 census? There is a corresponding Ruth Enid Wilson birth on FreeBMD which I know has been mentioned previously, but I'm not sure if we looked her up on the 1911 census before or not:
                            Sculcoates, East Riding of Yorkshire
                            Arthur Wilson 46
                            Elizabeth Eleanor Wilson 41
                            Charlotte Marian Wilson 17
                            Arthur Hart J Wilson 15
                            Bertha Kathleen Wilson 13
                            Alfred Edward Wilson 9
                            Cyrus Harold Wilson 9
                            Dorothy Lavinia Wilson 7
                            Ruth Enid Wilson 4

                            I know this isn't quite the area we are expecting them to be in, but a few of the names match your Wilson family (though no Thomas among them.) I'm trying to find them in 1901 but my laptop's internet connection is playing up so maybe someone else can find them quicker. Or if you think it might be them, Lorraine, you could look at the transcript or image of the 1911 entry to see their birthplaces and check whether Arthur's occupation looks right?
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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                            • #15
                              Wouldn't you know it, as soon as I posted that up, I found something which makes it extremely likely to be the right family - a death on FreeBMD for Dorothy L Wilson age 7, Sculcoates district, Apr-Jun 1911. Must have died not long after the census. And you said on one of your other threads that your Dorothy was supposed to have died aged about 6.

                              Sorry if this has all been gone over before!
                              KiteRunner

                              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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                              • #16
                                So are we saying when this person died:

                                Births Sep 1906
                                Wilson Ruth Enid Skirlaugh 9d 345


                                her dob was recorded as 18th Nov 1908?

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                                • #17
                                  Skirlaugh and Sculcoats? I'm very confused!!

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                                  • #18
                                    No idea whether the death that Lorraine found is the right one or not. The name is just Ruth Tate on that death, not Ruth Enid (or even Ruth Enid Angel) so it may well not be her. But that birth is looking very likely to be the right birth for Lorraine's Ruth.
                                    KiteRunner

                                    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                                      Skirlaugh and Sculcoats? I'm very confused!!

                                      Merry, Lorraine has said before that she thinks they may have moved around a lot. Without paying up to look at the 1911(!) we don't know what it says for Ruth Enid's birthplace on there, but maybe we can spot births for some of the other family members to see if there is any kind of pattern? Or find them on the 1901?
                                      KiteRunner

                                      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Ladies first then..........

                                        I'm going to eat my chilli con carne first!!

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