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  • some ideas please

    i just found out my 3rd great grandmother was not fully german.
    adolphine augusta charlotte wilhelmina gebert was born in 1864, concordia, south australia.

    on her marriage cert, her father's name is adolph hermann carl gebert. same for her death cert. mother was frederike wilhelmina elizabeth eisfelder. they married in 1866.

    i figured out she was born before marriage, and just thought she was not registered, as her 8 brothers were and her birth never showed up.
    yesterday kerri on here was nice enought to look under eisfelder for me, and bang, a birth reg was found.

    she was registered under coen. mother was frederike eisfelder, father was john coen. im still reeling. i have adolph's family to 1780 in mecklenberg and now im not related. it's not that i followed any wrong leads. all the info said she was a gebert. but now she's not. dissapointing yes, but know i wanna know why!!

    apparently john and frederike never married. so, is adolphine illegitimate?
    i thought only a mother was registered in that case.
    did they marry overseas? did she make him up?
    did frederike leave john and had adolph raise adolphine?
    did he die?
    did she have an affair with adolph when she was with john?

    i can't find any newspapers online for south australia, and i think they are my best shot. any ideas?

  • #2
    John Coen, was probably either jewish ( a german jew?) or irish as it can be be an anglicised version of an old irish name.

    Comment


    • #3
      You can find some issues of the SA Advertiser (1850s and 1860s) here:

      NLA Australian Newspapers beta

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      • #4
        thanx for that link mary, but i can't seem to find anything. maybe his surname wasn't coen.

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        • #5
          I have plenty of births and baptisms for children where the parents were not married.

          My great grandmother was the 5th child to her unmarried parents and named after her mother's (still alive at the time) proper husband?????

          Who can work out why these thungs happen.

          As far as your girl.......have you looked for John Coen??? Maybe he died before or shortly after his daughter's brith. Maybe the parents were married??

          Do you know if Frederike came from Germany to SA or maybe elswhere on the way where she could have married??

          Does Frederike's death cert say when she came to Australia? Maybe she married before coming??

          Of course the other option is the John Coe is just a mistake....I've had those as well.

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          • #6
            all i know is his name. frederike came around 1862, info from the death cert.
            she has adolphine and gets married to adolph. before these events is just blank.
            i know little of her, and even less of him. i don't even know where in germany she was from.

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            • #7
              Sounds like Adolphine is Adolph's daughter by the names..

              Do you know any more about Adolph???? I wonder if he was going under the name of John Coen (Cowen)???

              I know that all sounds odd, but I'm thinking out loud and that sometimes worries people....lol

              I wonder if they were maybe working for a John Coen and someone went and registered Adolphine's birth. The registrar asks the fellow "What's your name?" or "What's the boss' name?"
              Answers "John Coen"...............gets put down as dad.

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              • #8
                im still not letting go of the fact that adolphine may be adolph's. i mean the name!! frederike's dad was carl rudolph. granted rudolph/adolph are interchangeable in certs. maybe frederike's dad was inspiration.

                i havn't got the cert, but they are $47 from south australia. that's a lot, for little more information than an english cert. i don't know who john coen is.
                or if frederike married him. i havn't been to the state library yet, so havn't found a death for john.

                i know quite a bit about adolph, i was very proud to have mecklenberg blood!!

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                • #9
                  If you find nothing under "John coen", try it under "Johann Coen" on the Internet once. There are some notes from Germany there.
                  Perhaps your ancestor is from one of these families. You find some Coen under the Familiensuche Trossen / Ahnen Heinz Trossen.
                  Wolf

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                  • #10
                    thanx wolfe. i love having german heritage, but it so difficult sometimes i hate it.
                    i cant get further than 1800-1826 with all my german families.

                    i will try those ideas, re being german, irish, but i think my best bet is the cert. it may have a vital clue, thought at that price, im still balking!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      just googled "20 most common british surnames", and found wikipedia's page "list of most common surnames". it has the most common surnames for most countries in the world.

                      any way, my point is, i found the surname cohen. it's jewish. the most common name in israel. is it possible this john cohen was jewish?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                        just googled "20 most common british surnames", and found wikipedia's page "list of most common surnames". it has the most common surnames for most countries in the world.

                        any way, my point is, i found the surname cohen. it's jewish. the most common name in israel. is it possible this john cohen was jewish?
                        Hi - yes, it is possible. Have you found anything for any of the surnames in the National Archives? Do you know where any of the family are buried?

                        Just for an example, these are Jewish Eisfelder's buried in Melbourne;
                        http://ajhs.info/cemetery/ There are too many Cohen's to list.
                        42509 1976-05-02 Eisfelder Louis L.L. n/a 2 n/a born 12 May 1893; husband of Hedwig; father of Erwin and Horst. n/a GB9 Springvale Necropolis Melbourne,VIC
                        42510 1978-11-10 Eisfelder Hedwig n/a 3 n/a born 8 April 1893; wife of Louis. n/a GB9 Springvale Necropolis Melbourne,VIC
                        42529 1978-12-24 Eisfelder Erwin n/a 22 n/a born 7 January 1924; son of Louis and Hedwig; brother of Horst. n/a GB9 Springvale Necropolis Melbourne,VIC
                        Last edited by naomiatt; 03-11-09, 07:49.

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                        • #13
                          i know nothing of john coen/cohen. i know the mother frederike eisfelder, arrived in s.a. roughly 1862. i know nothing of her family, or where she is from. her father was a carl rudolph (adolph?) a mine manager. her birth place is listed as klaudelen/klaundelen from people, but i have never seen her give this info, her death cert just says germany. her fathers occupation could lend weight to the theory she was from hanover, but silesia has mines too! she had wilhelmina in 1864. then she married adolph gebert in 1866, and they eventually moved to victoria. adolph died in 1912, frederike in 1917, and wilhelmina in 1944. all are buried in the jeparit cemetery. i have photo's of the headstones, and they're death certs.
                          my first thing once work kicks in tomorrow (yay!) will be wilhelmina's birth (i just have to know, even though they are expensive), to see what is going on. i have a feeling i won't be finding mr coen any time soon!
                          Last edited by kylejustin; 03-11-09, 07:55.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            PS - sorry, forgot to put the link - there are 19 Eisfelder's in the NA
                            RecordSearch - National Archives of Australia
                            Lots of Cohen and Coen.
                            Last edited by naomiatt; 03-11-09, 08:01.

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                            • #15
                              i have noticed a lot of eisfelder's are jewish. most of the ones in S.A. are from hanover. i havn't seen a good death entry for her father, so i assume frederike came her on her own, or with a sister as some germans seemed to do, or she married john coen in germany, and they emmigrated together.

                              i found a mention of the surname eisfelder in google books. it is really hard finding anything on german or jewish surname origins.

                              the book is:Jewish family names and their origins: an etymological dictionary
                              By Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer, Eva H. Guggenheimer

                              and on page 215, it suggests eisfeld and eisfelder are from a place called eisfeld in thuringia.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                                i have noticed a lot of eisfelder's are jewish. most of the ones in S.A. are from hanover. i havn't seen a good death entry for her father, so i assume frederike came her on her own, or with a sister as some germans seemed to do, or she married john coen in germany, and they emmigrated together.

                                i found a mention of the surname eisfelder in google books. it is really hard finding anything on german or jewish surname origins.

                                the book is:Jewish family names and their origins: an etymological dictionary
                                By Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer, Eva H. Guggenheimer

                                and on page 215, it suggests eisfeld and eisfelder are from a place called eisfeld in thuringia.
                                Hi - there is a man in Melbourne who has the name and is Jewish - if you like, I can e mail him - I did some time ago. PM your e mail and I can c.c you. There is a lot of info on German Jewish ancestry - this site gives you an idea
                                GerSIG: German Jewish Special Interest Group
                                JewishGen Germany Database - you have to register to search
                                It would be good to find passenger arrival info for Frederike....in the big scheme, there aren't too many Coen's.....so perhaps look for all the different spellings. John Coen might not have been Jewish...it's just a possibility...likewise, Frederike...but you never know!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                                  Hi - there is a man in Melbourne who has the name and is Jewish.
                                  thanx, but i just emailed a man that fits this description!

                                  Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                                  It would be good to find passenger arrival info for Frederike....in the big scheme, there aren't too many Coen's.....so perhaps look for all the different spellings.
                                  passenger lists are very difficult for S.A. i havnt seen anything under either name. i have to remember though, a lot of shipping details are missing.

                                  Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                                  John Coen might not have been Jewish...it's just a possibility...likewise, Frederike...but you never know!
                                  just one of the many theories i have going on this couple!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    [QUOTE=kylejustin;1886401]thanx, but i just emailed a man that fits this description!
                                    QUOTE]

                                    Be interesting to see what he says :smilee:

                                    Hopefully the cert you apply for will give more clues as well.

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                                    • #19
                                      NOTE: - Another EISFELDER FAMILY who live mostly in South Australia, descended from Karl Rudolf EISFELDER who lived at Concordia, South Australia
                                      He had come from Wismar in Mecklenburg, Germany.
                                      A daughter Frederica Wilhelmina Elizabeth EISFELDER was born on 15.VI.1866
                                      he says this note was on his father's tree that he compiled, with help from desendants of an eisfelder family from clausthal.
                                      he seems to think my family is related to the one who arrived on the "john cesar" in 1855. but he says mine were from wismar in mecklenberg, but this one and his own line are from clausthal in hanover?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                                        he says this note was on his father's tree that he compiled, with help from desendants of an eisfelder family from clausthal.
                                        he seems to think my family is related to the one who arrived on the "john cesar" in 1855. but he says mine were from wismar in mecklenberg, but this one and his own line are from clausthal in hanover?
                                        Hi - Does he think that your family were Jewish? Was he able to give you more ideas for Wismar? Have you looked in to the John Cesar ship?
                                        Wonder if this is it?
                                        Ships
                                        1856 - Johann Caesar
                                        Departed: 30 Sep 1855, Hamburg, Germany
                                        Arrived: 3 Feb 1856, Moreton Bay, Qld
                                        Master: Captain Nicholas Stertenbecker
                                        Particulars: German bark ; aka Johan Caesar or John Caesar ; 390 t ; built at Reiherstieg, Hamburg, by shipping magnate Johann Cesar Godeffroy (J.C.Godeffroy & Company) in 1851/52 ; registered 3 September 1852 ; 37,9 x 8,1 x 5,12 metres (length x beam x depth of hold) ; "sold Swedish" in 1880, to Bjorksgren, Kalmar, and renamed Ingegerd ; sailed to Australia via Calcutta, reaching Moreton Bay on 8 February 1856.
                                        Notes: The Darling Downs, Queensland, during the 1830s to 1860s was divided into large lease land holdings. In the 1850s there was a labour shortage on the pastoral properties of the Darling Downs due to the pastoral workers vanishing to the gold fields. To counter this phenomenon, the squatter aristocracy used German agents to recruit German shepherd migrants who were brought out under contract between 1852 and 1855. As the squatter’s properties were unfenced, a Shepherd’s job was to live in isolated areas of the property and protect a flock of sheep from dingoes, aboriginal hunters and generally keep the flock in the boundaries of the station. They proved to be reliable, frugal and sober workers who managed to save sufficient cash out of their wages of 20 to 30 pounds per year (and rations) to enable them to purchase land in the Sixties. These immigrants were forced to come out not through religious persecution as their South Australian counterparts had done but through agricultural disasters that caused famine and abandonment of uneconomical land holdings caused by generations of land division.
                                        24-year-old Christian Friedrick ('Frederick') Kyling travelled to Australia aboard the Johann Caesar

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