chase the money !

[RNM]

Ok a brick wall - a low one but solid

Sorry its long winded

Luke Lees (b1831) and Noah Lees(b1835) leave their Father's (John) home (a Coaching Inn and farm) in Collinwood lancs together. I think quite young.... say approx 1847.

The Inn and Farm is later run by their elder Brother Solomon (so they don't inherit that)

I can't find them on the 1851 census.

They arrive together in liverpool (2 Heath Road ) with money !!

They marry sisters Agnes and Mary Hacking-Spence - Father a sea Captain with (I think) his own ships and certainly one hell of a boring but beautifully bound library !!!

Noah buys half the Star Theatre and on selling later retires very early in comfort.

Luke moves to Wirral approx 1859 ; buys the Railway Inn and lives there; But and its a Big But is invited on to the Commission that precedes the Council in Birkenhead (planned B,head , the Park etc. )

Now whilst it takes some money to buy a theatre and a pub it takes considerable dosh to sit at a table with John Laird etc. on the Commission.
I know later he owned property in the area as well but I'm not sure when that was acquired.

There is a family story of Luke (maybe and Noah) coming to Liverpool via Manchester and having a "water business" there (Manchester at this point relied on bottled and barrelled water brought into the city - there were riots about supply)

Lees the place ( nr Oldham) where they all originate had a spa and bottled water.

Is this the source of the money ???
At what point and where (more family stories) did they "travel before they got married"
Is this where they were in 1851 ???
Was this the source of the money ???

I know it seems sort of mercenary but it isn't ( the Taxman got all the money in the end :( ) it just bugs me that there's an enormous change in lifestyle over a relatively short span of time and I can't find the details So Help please..........
Roger

[KiteRunner]

Have you searched for family wills - their father's, their mother's, grandparents, aunts and uncles (especilly any without children of their own)?

[RNM]

Kiterunner
haven't found John's (their fathers will) I do have theirs but those, of course, don't cover the where from, just the who to !!
Wondered if anyone had access to directories in Manchester for the period - I've looked but Manchester was changing so fast then .........
See stuck in the Victorian fog of industrial revolution !!!

Roger : )

[KiteRunner]

Do you know when their father died?

[Night Owl]

Don't know if this will help but I think I've found them in 1851

HO107 piece 2179, folio 298, page 28

Transcribed as Lake and Noal Lees, servants with James Ogden, a publican. I think their occupations are "barman in vaults" but perhaps someone else could check

[RNM]

John Lees dies 22 February 1842

Jackie where was James Ogden - Oldham ish ??

Thanks for that I'll see if I can find the typoed version - of course it gives them even less time to make any money ........................

Roger ; ))

[Night Owl]

John Lees dies 22 February 1842

Jackie where was James Ogden - Oldham ish ??

Thanks for that I'll see if I can find the typoed version - of course it gives them even less time to make any money ........................

Roger ; ))

27 Vauxhall Road, (Vauxhall) Liverpool

[RNM]

Nightowl
Could you check 1851 census - both born St Margarets Hollinwood Lancs 1831 and 1835 (exact years)
Its just that it doesn't seem to fit ...................

The typo seems reasonable - lake and Noal, I ask you , comes of having Americans type up the census

But their Father owned a pub - why get trained some where else ?? and its a pretty rough part of town back then. 2 roads up from the docks - I know I'm a snob :D but it seems unlikely ........... and I know there are a few luke lees's from lancs around the same date.

Sorry but i'm not on Ancestry anymore and it won't give me a free look !!
Roger

[Night Owl]

James Ogden Head married 35 publican b Oldham Lancs
Sarah Ogden Wife married 33 b Winslow Bucks
Hannah Wallace servt. 27 House servant b Liverpool
Luke Lees servt. 19 Barman in vaults (?) b Oldham Lancs
Noah Lees servt. 17 ditto ditto

The Noah (?) does look like Noale

What do they give as their birthplaces after that?

(I'm a southerner so I don't know that part of the country too well )

[KiteRunner]

Could the Ogdens be relatives of theirs, perhaps? It doesn't always say what relation they are on the census if they are working for the head of house; it often does just say servant even when they are related.

[Olde Crone Holden]

I think it was fairly common for farmers and publicans to send their sons off as servants in order to learn their trade - cheaper than an apprenticeship and generally forged good relations with the "trainer", who might of course, be a relative.

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure you have the right family? I note there was a Luke Lees, Mayor of Birkenhead in 1910...yours would have been much too old I would think, could this be his son and might the family story have got a bit mangled up down the years?

Do you have proof that they owned a Pub? My 2 x GGPs were landlords of a pub for 55 years but they never owned it, they just owned the lease.

Finally, the Victorian era was an unparalled opportunity for going from rags to riches overnight - work hard, be in the right place at the right time and you could rise like a rocket to the top.

OC

[RNM]

The Luke Lees who was Mayor was this Luke lees's son my GGfather Also owned pubs Hotels and Properties ( I come from a long line of heavy drinkers !!) The original LL was also loaded :D At one stage 3/4 of the council was family - nothing like a bit of nepotism !!

John Lees definitely owned the coaching inn - I can't remember its name but I've got it on his file; doesn't exist anymore nor does much of "their" bit of Oldham area. They were all minor land owners and most were brewers/innkeepers/ owners as well. There are a few farmers later too.

Its interesting Ogden came from Oldham area too but no obvious relationship.

Whilst anyone could, and can, open a pub it was usual to go through a training if you were a brewer as well as a Licensed Victualler. I know Luke Snr was licensed to reduce spirits (from 100% to 60/70%) and bottled brandy rum, port etc from barrel imports this isn't usual ...........and that my GGFather had a brewery but that was his not his fathers and although a member of the LV association I don't think LL Snr was a brewer.

If this is the right luke, and it seems like it must be, it leaves them 7 years from being a servant to owning a theatre etc. did they have the lottery then ??!

The trouble with census reports is they give a tantalising momentary snap shot once a decade - not always that accurate a snap shot either - and theres no way of filling the gaps:(

R

[RNM]

Spoke to an aged Aunt - she'd kill me if she heard that description and she says that LL snr definitely "had a mineral water business in manchester before coming to Liverpool" They thought as children this meant "pop" rather than water but as I said manchester relied on barrel or bottle water so probably was water as such - guess

Roger :(

[RNM]

Just figured out their ages on the 1851 census my LL should be 20 and NL should be 15 - the birth place is right and their together but NL is 2 years out born - 25 Oct 1835. LL would be right if the census was before March .... Born 19 March 1831 I know there are other NL and LL from Oldham area around their dates but none exact dates but what are the odds ???
If I just found NL the "wrong" age on a census I'd discount it but both together ????

why couldn't he have left a diary like his son !!

Roger : )

[quoy]

are these yours
Liverpool Mercury Feb 21st 1857
at Walton on the Hill Mr. Luke Lees wine and spirit merchant of this town to Agnes Hackling 2nd daughter of the late Captain John Spence of this port

March 17th 1876

Lees 5th Marchat The Railway hotel 61 St Pauls RoadTranmere. The wife of Mr. Luke Lee a son


May 10th 1859 Mr Noah Lees Licensed Victullar to Miss Mary Catherine eldest daughter of the late Captain John Spence of this port



1892 Railway collision near Liverpool
Noah Lees of the Star Music Hall sustained a scalp wound and a bruise on the left shoulder but was able to go home in a cab

there are lots more but I am only a 1 fingered typist

[RNM]

quoy

YES these are mine never heard the scalped bit !! can you email these or send me the link ?? I'm a one finger typist meself : ))

Roger : ))