The Winner of WDWTYA? 26th March 2009 is......

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

skylark!!

Well done Margaret!

*prepares for Great Wall of China*

[skylark]

WOW !!!! Many thanks for the chance to post my brick walls...I will get my facts & figures together & list them ASAP...

Margaret.:D

[skylark]

Samuel hale

My biggest brick wall is my maternal Grandad. He was SAMUEL HALE b1890?
His parentage is a mystery which means I cannot apply for a birth cert for him. I have the 1911 census which has him living at 21 LOMBARD ST,ASTON, BIRMINGHAM. ( He actually filled out the census )

James Willis, 67, b Worcs. Lab in Brass shop.Head.
Jane Willis, 58, wife, (M= 9 years ) b Stafford Charwoman.
Philip Willis, 11, b B'ham
SAMUEL HALE, 21, single, Chandelier maker-up. b Stafford.

NOTE: family story is that he had a brother called Philip...so is the Philip on the 1911 related to Samuel ??

My grandparents married in 1912, & Samuel was still living at 21 Lombard St.
He did name his Father as FRANK SAMUEL HALE, a collier, deceased on the marriage cert. I have not been able to find ANYONE of that name so assume that this was a bogus name for appearance's sake. Samuel was in WW1. He joined the Royal Warwickshire Regt in 1917. SADLY his papers would appear to be among the "burnt papers" as there is no trace of him on Ancestry, & in fact I was prepared to pay someone to do a lookup in Kew for me. but he was unable to find anything. I have even got in touch with the Warwickshire Rgt museum in Warwick but they were unable to find anything. Samuel was awarded the usual general service & victory medals. He was demobbed in 1920. I did know my grandad & he died in 1956. Does anyone have any idea as to where I can now go in my search ? Thanks in advance.
Margaret.

[skylark]

Brough/moulson connection.

I have a copy of a marriage between HENRY MOULSON & MARY BROUGH on
16/05/1831 in Sutton Coldfield ( too early to have fathers names ) The witnesses were THOMAS & ANN FARMER ( my GtGtgrandparents ) The maiden name of ANN was BROUGH.....my problem is trying to connect these 2 Brough girls. The parents of ANN were WILLIAM & ANN BROUGH. Ann was born in 1810 in B'ham. I have traced Ann through the census's & Mary & Henry Moulson are also easy to trace. they were in B'ham on the 1841/51/61 & then moved to Sheffield on the 1871/81/. The date of birth for Mary would appear to be 1812. I have looked & failed to find her on the IGI baptisms. I would love to be able to pinpoint the family connection for these 2 Brough females. Any help will be much appreciated.

Margaret.

[KiteRunner]

He did name his Father as FRANK SAMUEL HALE, a collier, deceased on the marriage cert. I have not been able to find ANYONE of that name so assume that this was a bogus name for appearance's sake.

I can see this is going to be one of those difficult ones, so probably won't get started on it properly till tomorrow, but just to say that sometimes people give their father a middle name on their marriage certificate which he doesn't have anywhere else, so it's possible his name was just plain Frank Hale.

[skylark]

Missing on census

These are the missing links from the various census ( where are they ?)

1901 Census Birmingham Warwickshire.
GEORGE MINCHIN b 1879 in Birmingham.


1901 Census Birmingham Warwickshire
SUSAN/SUSANNAH MINCHIN b 1875 in B'ham
FLORENCE LOUISA MINCHIN b 1898 in B'ham (daughter of Susannah)


1891 Census Birmingham Warwickshire
JEMIMA MINCHIN b 1872 Birmingham


1871 Census Birmingham Warwickshire
CATHERINE WARD, b 1849 Coventry

Many thanks. Margaret.

[brenmac]

congratulations enjoy your busy week brenda xxx

[KiteRunner]

Sorry, Margaret, I'm not quite sure what you are asking in post number 6 - are the censuses you list the ones that they are missing from, or the ones that you have found them on?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

James Willis, 67, b Worcs. Lab in Brass shop.Head.
Jane Willis, 58, wife, (M= 9 years ) b Stafford Charwoman.
Philip Willis, 11, b B'ham
SAMUEL HALE, 21, single, Chandelier maker-up. b Stafford.

NOTE: family story is that he had a brother called Philip...so is the Philip on the 1911 related to Samuel ??

Looking just at this census I would have guessed that Jane had previously been called Hale and was mum to Samuel and either mum or step-mum to Philip. However, that doesn't seem to be the case!

I noted there's a Philip Willis on the 1901 census aged 1 b Birmingham. His father is James, but he is only about 40. His wife is Kate. I don't see an obvious death for Kate/Catherine etc and I don't see an obvious marriage to Jane around the date they claim.

Having studied the various Philip Willis entries in 1901/1911 and on the GRO birth/deaths indexes, it would seem that Philip son of young James on the 1901 census and Philip son of older James on the 1911 are the same person!

Did Jane fill in the part about living/dec'd children on the 1911 census?

[KiteRunner]

Margaret, on the 1911 census for the Willis family plus Samuel Hale, does it give the relationship to head for Philip Willis and Samuel Hale, please?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Having temporarily gone off the idea of Jane being Samuel's mother, I keep looking at Samuel Hale b West Brom 1889, son of Jemima Hale (by the look of it) who are together in the workhouse in 1891.

I have seen these marriage entries:

Marriages Jun 1897
Garratt William Tranter Dudley 6c 168
Haden William Dudley 6c 168
Hale Jemima Dudley 6c 168
Woodhall Parthena Ann Dudley 6c 168

William Garrett seems to have married Parthena Woodhall as they are together in 1901 (thank goodness for some uncommon names!)

I can't see Jemima and William Haden in 1901 but have found them in 1911. The index shows Jemima as having been born in 1875, so in theory a lot younger than the mother of Samuel Hale b 1889.

I tried harder to find them in 1901 (this is two of their children, so it shoud be easy) ..............

Births Sep 1898
Haden Hilda Beatrice W. Bromwich 6b 881


Births Dec 1900
Haden Elsie May W. Bromwich 6b 811

I wanted to check if they had a "son" called Samuel (Hale/Haden?) with them, but they have defeated me for the moment. :(

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Margaret, on the 1911 census for the Willis family plus Samuel Hale, does it give the relationship to head for Philip Willis and Samuel Hale, please?

Philip is listed as Son Kite. I've not worked out Samuel yet!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Samuel is a boarder :(

[skylark]

More info...

Hello again folks,

The census dates are the years that the named people are MISSING from...I
have them before & after these years but I just cannot find them on the census records for the years given.

1911 Samuel Hale.

As regards to Philip Willis, I have also seen the family on the 1901 & am fairly sure that the family is the correct one although the parents names & ages just do not add up....my thought was that perhaps the James & Jane Willis on the 1911 were in fact the Parents of the 1901 James ???? That would fit in with there only being one child of the marriage. I should add that I have not found any sign of Philips siblings on the 1911 census.

I have always felt that Samuel Hale is the one in West Bromwich as a 1year old with Jemima Hale on the 1891...but there is no sign of Jemima before 1891
I did try to obtain info from Stafford Record Office, but was informed that all documents relating to the work house had been destroyed. I have no idea if inmates actually kept their own names OR were they given new ones on admission ???

Regards, Margaret.

[KiteRunner]

I've never heard of people's names being changed when they went into the workhouse, only if they were foundlings and had to be given a name.

[skylark]

Thanks for that info Kite, so I will continue to look for Jemima Hale...

Margaret.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I presume Samuel's marriage witnesses are no one helpful?

[skylark]

Alas the witnesses did not have names that seem pertinent to our family.

Margaret.

[kylejustin]

it might be handy to post them up, skylark, as they may be distant relations, or may have worked with your ancestors.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

It's quite odd that there's a Jemima Hale in the same workhouse in 1881 but she is roughly the same age as the 1891 Jemima. There's a birth of yet another (?) Jemima Hale in West Brom in 1872 and I can't find her afterwards either.