Wilson help please

[LorraineJ]

I now have my grandparents marriage certificate and the information gleaned has turned up very little clue (either that or I am interpreting it wrongly).

The marriage was in Worksop at St Mary Magdalene's Church, Cresswell, Derby

It was in Oct 1919 between

Thomas Wilson (28) Grocer residing at 48 Portland Villa and his father was an Arthur Wilson, traveller

and

Lilias Helen Smith (24) also residing at 48 Portland Villa and her father was Albert Smith, Bootmaker

An Elizabeth Wilson (presumably Thomas' mother) is one of the witnesses.

My Mum tells me that my grandfather went on to have a deli in Liverpool which he got fed up with and moved to Retford, leaving his sister Lottie and hubby Fred with the deli.

As for Portland Villa, its possible Portland Villa was a big house with flats, either that or there was a shop downstairs and my grandparents had a room each before they were married.

We know Arthur Smith was born around 1860 in Capel. I am told that my Mum was told that the family were born in Yorkshire. One of Thomas' sisters Dorothy died of a cat scratch when she was six. As for the Traveller bit, I was told Arthur left my grandmother (so that could be the reason he wasn't a witness) either that or he was already dead. I know there was a Lottie, could have been a Kathleen, three other boys (one of which got blown up in WW1) and Ruth.

If anyone could find a census page, with all the children that would be marvelous. Is there a marriage between Arthur and Elizabeth perhaps, the problem is that as I am no longer a member of ancestry, I can't eliminate a lot of the research red herrings).

MTIA

[Elaine ..Spain]

One of Thomas' sisters Dorothy died of a cat scratch when she was six. As for the Traveller bit, I was told Arthur left my grandmother (so that could be the reason he wasn't a witness) either that or he was already dead. I know there was a Lottie, could have been a Kathleen, three other boys (one of which got blown up in WW1) and Ruth.

Do you have any idea of the year of birth for any of these Wilson children?

[LorraineJ]

I know that Ruth was the youngest but am unsure whether Dorothy was younger then died, making Ruth the youngest if you see what I mean.

In the 1911 census I found a Thomas Wilson who was then 19 born in Patrington, East Riding, wondered if this could be my grandfather. I have also found a Dorothy Wilson born in 1898 that died 1901 June in Ecclesall Bierlow, Derbyshire - not sure of the geography of the area but wonder if she is his little sister and the fact their father was a traveller could account for the different birth places. Apart from that, I know very little. My Mum was told Thomas was the eldest, but that could be another tall story to impress a little girl (my Mum).

Would I need to get hold of a copy of Arthur and Elizabeth's marriage certificate to get more clues, though I haven't got the faintest idea where or if they every got married, could be Hull could be Timbucktoo for all I know!!

[JudithM]

............As for Portland Villa, its possible Portland Villa was a big house with flats, either that or there was a shop downstairs and my grandparents had a room each before they were married...............................
MTIA

A possible explanation of both giving same address is that one of them lived in a different parish so to save paying for banns to be read in two parishes they both claimed the same address. There used to be a tradition of the bride (or groom - whoever didn't live there) bringing a suitcase and "parking" it in their fiancee's home as "proof" that they were resident;)

[LorraineJ]

A possible explanation of both giving same address is that one of them lived in a different parish so to save paying for banns to be read in two parishes they both claimed the same address. There used to be a tradition of the bride (or groom - whoever didn't live there) bringing a suitcase and "parking" it in their fiancee's home as "proof" that they were resident;)

It must have been my grandmother that did the parking then, as she came from Leatherhead in Surrey originally. Just wondering if there is anyway of finding out whether number 48 was ever a grocery store.

[Elaine ..Spain]

One of Thomas' sisters Dorothy died of a cat scratch when she was six. As for the Traveller bit, I was told Arthur left my grandmother (so that could be the reason he wasn't a witness) either that or he was already dead. I know there was a Lottie, could have been a Kathleen, three other boys (one of which got blown up in WW1) and Ruth.

I am still looking at the census to see if I can find any of these siblings!
You say there was one brother who was killed in WW1 - do you know his name? If we can find him on the CWGC site we might be able to work back and find him in 1901.

[LorraineJ]

I am still looking at the census to see if I can find any of these siblings!
You say there was one brother who was killed in WW1 - do you know his name? If we can find him on the CWGC site we might be able to work back and find him in 1901.

I am not sure, though a vaguely remember my uncle (my Mum's brother) mentioning an Albert (I think). He was blown to bits apparently, my grandfather got gassed twice and survived. Another brother went to Canada, the other Australia but I don't know their names.

I am told that we have some Irish in our ancestry in this part of the family but am not sure how this fits in.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Do you know when Thomas Wilson died?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

We know Arthur Smith was born around 1860 in Capel.

Should that read Arthur Wilson or Albert Smith?

[LorraineJ]

As far as I know Thomas Wilson died in 1958 in London I think.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

An Elizabeth Wilson (presumably Thomas' mother) is one of the witnesses.

I wouldn't presume that - she could be a sister or sister-in-law etc etc

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

As far as I know Thomas Wilson died in 1958 in London I think.

Pity - if he had lived another 11 years his death cert would probably have his place of birth on it!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

What about Lottie and Fred? - does Fred have a surname? Do you know what happened to them?

What about Ruth? Do you know what happened to her?

We need to be able to positively identify a sibling who died after 1969 unless we get lucky with the census.

[KiteRunner]

Lorraine, who was the other witness (or who were the other witnesses?) apart from Elizabeth Wilson, please?

[LorraineJ]

Lorraine, who was the other witness (or who were the other witnesses?) apart from Elizabeth Wilson, please?

Looks like a Mary Ann(e)(a) Hessery (but its not terribly clear). The vicar was a Joseph G (E) Pagel if thats any help.

[LorraineJ]

What about Lottie and Fred? - does Fred have a surname? Do you know what happened to them?

What about Ruth? Do you know what happened to her?

We need to be able to positively identify a sibling who died after 1969 unless we get lucky with the census.

All I know about Lottie and Fred is the shop was in the Wirral area (big area I know but Wallasey rings a bell for some reason). I am told they had two girlsnames removed in case still living. Haven't a clue about their surname.

Ruth Wilson married Fred (known in the family as Nicky) Tate the speedway star, who I am told was born in the Nottinghamshire somewhere. He had his near fatal accident in 1936 and she was his fiancee then, therefore they must have married sometime after that. She died sometime in the late 70s, but I could not tell you precisely when or where.



As for my grandfather, I am pretty certain he died before I was born, but I am not certain of the date, he could have died the year before my sister was born rather than the year before I was born, but I'll check on where with my Mum.

[LorraineJ]

Should that read Arthur Wilson or Albert Smith?

Quite definitely (as she reads from the marriage certificate) Albert Smith, bootmaker who was born in Capel in 1860.

Albert and Arthur had to be really popular names of the day, as there are thousands of them.

[LorraineJ]

All I know about Lottie and Fred is the shop was in the Wirral area (big area I know but Wallasey rings a bell for some reason). I am told they had two girlsnames removed in case still living. Haven't a clue about their surname.

Ruth Wilson married Fred (known in the family as Nicky) Tate the speedway star, who I am told was born in the Nottinghamshire somewhere. He had his near fatal accident in 1936 and she was his fiancee then, therefore they must have married sometime after that. She died sometime in the late 70s, but I could not tell you precisely when or where.



As for my grandfather, I am pretty certain he died before I was born, but I am not certain of the date, he could have died the year before my sister was born rather than the year before I was born, but I'll check on where with my Mum.

If they are still alive, I'd be really surprised, as they would have to be in their 80s or 90s, as they were older than my Mum.

[KiteRunner]

There are lots of people in their 80's and 90's, Lorraine, so our site policy is to assume they are alive unless we know they aren't.

[LorraineJ]

There are lots of people in their 80's and 90's, Lorraine, so our site policy is to assume they are alive unless we know they aren't.

Fair enough, better to be save than sorry