Why does their mother's maiden name change?

[Claire EDe]

I have just received 2 birth certificates for a brother and sister, what surprised me was that the mother's maiden name changes on each certificate but her signature is the same on each certificate. I think it is the same woman as mother in both cases especially because of what she quotes as her maiden name on the girl's birth certificate appears as a variation on her son's middle name.

The fathers also have different christian names but the same surnames - so were they related/brothers/cousins/father-son?

I've got Thomas Ede c.1850 Epsom on the 1861-1901 census sheets, he died before 1907 but I could not find him in the 1851 census yet (his sister was born in Oct 1851). It may be I could not find him as I was looking for a Thomas Ede son of George Ede whereas I should have looked for Thomas as being the head of the household.

The 1871 Census shows that they are brother and sister, and strangely the younger sibling Matilda is the head of the household rather than her brother (In 1861 Thomas was working as a groom in Wiltshire for an Isaac Woolcott, so he was living away from home so by 1871 Matilda may have had her own house/shack on Epsom Common and that might be why she was shown as head instead of her older brother).

1871 census
Address: Common, Epsom schedule no. 192
Registration District: Epsom

Matilda Ede - age 20 born c. 1851 Epsom, Surrey, head, female, nurse maid, single
Thomas Ede - age 21 born c. 1850 Epsom, Surrey, brother, maile, labourer, single

The birth certificates tell me:

Thomas Dukey Ede born 2nd Oct 1850 - father's name: Thomas Ede brick maker, mother's surname and maiden name: Eliza Ede formerly Chapman Oct-Dec 1850 Vol 4 page 149 Epsom

Matilda Ede born 9 Oct 1851 - father's name: George Ede Labourer, mother's surname and maiden name: Eliza Ede formerly Duke Oct-Dec 1851 Vol 4 page 161 Epsom

George Ede, Matilda's father is stated as a game-keeper and is recorded as father for Thomas Ede on his marriage certificate that I have for his marriage on 12/1/1873 in Stoke D'Abernon, Cobham.

So I can sort of see how Thomas Dukey Ede got his middle name if it was his mother's maiden name, but on his birth certificate she gives her maiden name as Chapman not Duke.

But also the fathers have different names on the siblings birth certificates but they are both Ede's!

Q1. Does any one have any ideas why has Eliza used 2 maiden names?

Q2. Could she have married 2 brothers?!

Q3. Why does Thomas Ede's marriage certificate say that his father was George Ede, game-keeper, when his birth certificate says his father was Thomas Ede, brick-maker? Could it be that George Ede was a step-father to young Thomas Ede if Thomas Ede senior disappeared/died within a year of young Thomas' birth?

George Ede died sometime after the marriage of Thomas Ede to Susan Reddick in 1873 but I've not found when yet or when he was born.

I just thought it so strange the mother had 2 different maiden names and it was the same registrar for both birth registrations.

I suppose a trip to the Records office to look at parish records for Epsom may help unravel the mystery?

[Joan of Archives]

Hi Claire

Not much help I know but I have more than one relative who put their "fathers" name down on the marriage cert & the "father" turned out to be an uncle! I wonder if it was quite common in those days to put a surrogate father down when maybe their own father had passed away? Have you tried to find a death for a Thomas Ede who was named on the birth cert as Thomas Dukey's father?

[Joan of Archives]

I found this death for Thomas Dukey :

Deaths Mar 1851
EDE Thomas Ducky Epsom 4 104

[Elaine ..Spain]

I see there is a death for a Thomas Ducky Ede, 1851 March quarter, Epsom 4, 104

Do you know who this?

[Christine in Herts]

Are you saying that the copy of the B-cert you're looking at actually has the original signature for the mother? You didn't get them from GRO, then, but from the local office?

Most certs are copies of transcriptions - even if they're copies of the contemporary transcription.

[Claire EDe]

Hi all

Thanks for your replies.

I'd not found the death for Thomas Ducky Ede in 1851 as the Thomas Ede that I had that was c. 1850 married in 1873 in Stoke D'Abernon! So the birth certificate that I have for Thomas Dukey Ede (could be Duckey - diff to tell if it is a 'c' or just loopy hand-writting) is the birth certificate for a baby that died? How sad.

So I still need to find the birth registration for Thomas Ede that married in 1873 to Susan Reddick. There are Ede links with Carshalton/Epsom so I think he may have been born in that area. Birth indexes for the UK were searched between 1849 and Jan-Mar 1851. There is another birth registration in Guildford (which is in Surrey) in Apr-Jun 1849, vol 5 page 198 but all the census reports state Thomas' birth place as Epsom, Surrey. There was a Thomas Ede born in Manchester, registered in Jan-Mar 1851 volume 20 page 621, but geographically that is way out! I don't know whether to send off for the Guildford birth registration now or try and find that at the Records Office this week to see if i can find it to find the parents of that Thomas Ede registered in Guildford.

There is a death registration in the July-Sep quarter of 1901, for a Thomas Ede, age 52, registered in Epsom, Surrey, volume 2a page 6. That Thomas was born about 1849 - so that could be my guy.

Re. the certificates they are from GRO and are not modern typed ones but are hand-written ink certificates with the same name as deputy registrar. So is that his writing and not the mother's hand-writing?

[Uncle John]

Re. the certificates they are from GRO and are not modern typed ones but are hand-written ink certificates with the same name as deputy registrar. So is that his writing and not the mother's hand-writing?

Are they modern hand-written or scans of the original (normally there's a greyish background when they are scanned)? The signature at the bottom will be a modern one, because they are certifying that it's a copy of a genuine original.

The GRO copy will not have any of the original signatures. You will only get those in the register held by the local registrar.

[Claire EDe]

The background is greyish so it has been scanned and they came from the GRO. I've tended to go to GRO but it would be nice to see original signatures, so i might try local RO from now on.

Thanks Uncle John!

[Elaine ..Spain]

The IGI shows 4 siblings with parents George and Eliza

1. GEORGE EDE
Gender: Male Christening: 11 JUL 1847 Epsom, Surrey
2. CHARLES EDE
Gender: Male Christening: 25 FEB 1849 Epsom, Surrey
3. THOMAS EDE
Gender: Male Christening: 14 DEC 1851 Epsom, Surrey
4. MATILDA EDE
Gender: Female Christening: 14 DEC 1851 Epsom, Surrey

Thomas' date of birth is given as 20 SEP 1849 - which means that the Guildford registration in 1849 2nd quarter is probably not the right one!

Can´t find George and Eliza on 1851 census!

[Christine in Herts]

The background is greyish so it has been scanned and they came from the GRO. I've tended to go to GRO but it would be nice to see original signatures, so i might try local RO from now on.

Thanks Uncle John!

If you're after images of original records, you'll need to make sure that they know that's what you're after. Some local offices will issue typed / handwritten ones, otherwise. Some don't have the equipment to photocopy the original registers without causing damage.

UKBMD - Births, Marriages, Deaths Indexes & Census Transcriptions On-line for UK Family History and Genealogy is a good place to look for links to Local BMD records. Many counties have online ordering systems. Many of the London Districts won't do genealogical requests - I think that, in some cases, they simply have too many records to be looking for hobby back-up.

Genuki, of course, has contact info for all teh local offices. Some can be extraordinarily helpful.

Christine

[Claire EDe]

Thank you everyone! I've never had much success with the IGI before, so I'd forgotten about it for this line. Perhaps he was not registered till Jan-Mar 1852 quarter and I'd looked up to Jan-Mar 1851 I think when I last looked. I'll go and check the 1852 index now!

Thanks so much!

[Elaine ..Spain]

Perhaps he was not registered till Jan-Mar 1852 quarter and I'd looked up to Jan-Mar 1851 I think when I last looked. I'll go and check the 1852 index now!

.. but the IGI gives his date of birth as 20 SEP 1849!

[Little Nell]

Sep 1845 marriages Epsom 4 p.119
Eliza Chapman & Thomas Ede

[Little Nell]

no marriages on Freebmd for Eliza Duke

[Claire EDe]

Woops! I forgot that I'd read that bit in your post! No wonder I could not see him in the Jan-Mar or Apr-Jun 1852 births then!

Births weren't compulsory then were they in 1852? But funny that his sister's birth was registered in Oct-Dec 1851 quarter, she was born 9/10/1851 and was registered on 18/11/1851 and they'd not registered Thomas? Hopefully the parish record for Epsom will confirm the IGI info.

[Claire EDe]

Thank you for the marriage checks!

The certificate for Matilda that I know I've got the right one said her mother's maiden name was Duke and it was Thomas Duckey's birth certificate that said Chapman. Thanks for finding these.

[KiteRunner]

Coming back to why the same woman would give two different maiden names, it could be that she was illegitimate and one surname was her mother's and the other her father's, or it could be that one surname is her original surname and the other her stepfather's, or of course it could just be a mistake.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Kate, I think we have established that there are two different families here and that the Thomas Ede (brickmaker) and Eliza Chapman are not the right parents.

We have George Ede and Eliza showing as parents of 4 children in the IGI but I cannot see a marriage for them.
In 1861 Eliza and Matilda are with William & Caroline Harris in Banstead Surrey - with Eliza recorded as sister (you would presume sister of William but I suppose it could be sister of Caroline!)
There is a William Duke listed as son of William and Caroline - so at least we have the Duke family name connection there!
It does state that Eliza is unmarried (which is a bit worrying!) although in 1871 I see Eliza is listed as widowed. There are a couple of possible George Ede deaths showing on freeBMD in the Epsom area (1850 & 1863).

..... which doesn't help us much at all! :o

[Claire EDe]

Hi Elaine

Thanks for this. I found the 1861 census with Eliza and Matilda together with William and Caroline but it is a while since I looked at the image. So was William Duke there on the 1861 census with them too, i'll have to call up the image again.

Where did you find Eliza in 1871? I'm not sure I've got that one. I have my research on another computer so I'll have to double check but not sure that I'd found her in 1871 as that is when I had Thomas and Matilda living together with Matilda as the head of the household which threw me a bit, as he was male and older and I thought he would have in those sexist times been more likely to be the head of the household, unless he'd moved in with his sister.

Thomas' marriage certificate said that his father was George Ede and a game-keeper and that was Jan 1873 so I was looking for deaths after that but could not find him. Thomas Ede was a groom.

By the way, I could not find the IGI record that showed George and Eliza with their 4 children on one search result, I found the children all listed indidividually with the same parents names. Did you find them in one family group on the IGI?

Thanks so much for your interest Elaine.

[Claire EDe]

I've just had a look at the IGI again and noticed that 3 children of George and Eliza Ede have the same birthday written down of 20th September. But I know that Matilda was not born then as I have her birth certficate. I just hope that the other dates are correct.

The IGI gives the following for the children:
George Ede - born 10/5/1847, baptism 11/7/1847 + from Birth reg Apr-Jun 1847 vol 4 page 133

Charles Ede - born 20/9/1848, baptism 25/2/1849 + from birth reg Oct-Dec 1848 vol 4 page 148

Thomas Ede - born 20/9/1849, baptism 14/12/1851 (cant' find a birth reg for him if he was born in Sept 1849 in Epsom)

Matilda Ede - born 20/9/1851 according to IGI, baptism 14/12/1851 yet birth certificate gives her date of birth as 9/10/1851.

So I think whoever lodged the records with the LDS site just made up the birthdates, perhaps the first one is right for Charles and they gave the same birthday to Thomas and Matilda? I think I'm going to have to try and look at the Epsom parish records on Wed and see what I can find out from them.

There was another George and Eliza Ede in 1871 that showed Eliza as being born in 1828 in Banstead and living on the Common at Epsom, schedule no. 248, but that showed her as widowed but from Thomas Ede's marriage certificate it did not say that her husband George was dead before Jan 1873, so I'm not sure that this is the right Eliza Ede c. 1828 on the 1871 census that I found.

I still could not get the LDS IGI site to give me the listing of the 4 children on one family page for George and Eliza.