Church charging for info?

[stuart Penny]

I have recently sent an email to a Church asking if they could tell me if my 4x Great Grandfather is buried in their churchyard.

In their reply they advise that they charge £19 an hour for this service.

Is this common practice?

If so as I have three Churches in the same area it may be cheaper to travel up and take a look.

Also do we 'have a right' of access to this info free of any charges if I were to attend on appointment and look through the burial ledger myself?

Any info greatly received

Stu

[Wor canny Lass]

Stuart,

This is not part of their responsibilites, and this takes time, so if they don't ask for payment, then the Church is subsidising your research - and how many more people will use their facilities? Today, lots of people think that all church facilities should be free, but they still have to be paid for - and usually by members.

If we want info, then - like any other hobby - we must be prepared to pay. I recently asked a local records office for a birth certificate, and they charged me £7.50, and I had sent a stamped and addressed envelope.

Anne

[JudithM]

Here's a link to the Church of England website whch then links to the table of fees for 2009. As you can see £19 is the statutory fee for the first hour of a search. http://www.cofe.anglican.org/lifeevents/fees/
Bear in mind if you do decide to travel to search for youself that, as this is your 4x great grandfather the burial register listing his burial will be over 100 years old and is very likely to be deposited in the County Records Office not held at the church. The church might have a listing of memorial inscriptions for its graveyard but that would only be useful if your ancestor's grave had a legible headstone or kerb when the inscriptions were trnscribed.

[stuart Penny]

Thank you Anne,

But you answered none of my questions.


JudithM

Thank you,

I think I will contact County Records Office.

Regards to you both

Stu

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Also do we 'have a right' of access to this info free of any charges if I were to attend on appointment and look through the burial ledger myself?

Stu

Hi Stuart,
You have a "right" to access registers deposited at a record office free of charge.
You do not have a similar "right" to access for free registers currently being used by the the church. They are usually the "working" registers.

The diocese sets a table of fees and it is then up to individual churches as to whether or not they make the charges.
In the past, I always included a cheque (made out to the church) as a donation, when submitting a request. (I varied the money according to how much information I thought I might get.) Sometimes I got a lot for my money, other times very little.It depended on how much information was available, rather than the size of the cheque.

Jay

[JBee]

Afraid some churches are desperate for money with dwindling congregations so will jump at any opportunity to fill their coffers - to help keep the church roof on.

It looks like the church in question followed the guidelines of the CofE website when asking for £19. Yes I think its a bit steep but then so could the services of a researcher be too. It may have been a decision of the authorities that they should benefit from this new hobby of Family History when they can.

Some busy clergyman find Family History researchers irritating and are not particularly helpful - others are absolutely fantastic. One last week (POW project) apologised for not being able to talk to me at length about his church but answered my questions and gave me a little booklet.

Agree that the parish registers may not be at the church and you may find the info easier at the County RO.

I went to one church in Warwickshire for a member and the graveyard had had big areas cleared and grassed over and no MI could be found. However the local county RO had a little booklet of MI's for the church (probably produced before the grassing of the churchyard). So would probably check there first.

[Olde Crone Holden]

You could save yourself a journey and check to see if the LDS have filmed the relevant register.

You can then order it to view at your nearest LDS centre, for a few £££ (£3 the last time I ordered a film).

OC

[Anne in Carlisle]

I agree the local County Record Office is your first port of call. You could also check with the local Family History Society to see if they have recorded the Memorial Inscriptions. These are also often placed by the FHS at the local CRO.

Unless it is a tiny parish it is unlikely that your 4x g grandfather's burial is still in the current register at the church.

Anne

[Pamdidle]

Stuart.

Could you see if there is anyone offering look ups at the relevant records office What part of the country are you refering to

[maggiemay]

I went to a church in Berkshire and must been very lucky as it was a Sunday they had just finished a service and the Vicar came out and asked what I was for I said looking for some graves he took me and showed me all his records I found my great/grandmothers grave my gg/randparents graves and a lot of great and great great Uncles and Aunts.

Margaret

[maggiemay]

Meant to have said he just me to make a donation in the church box which I was only to glad to do

Margaret

[Christine in Herts]

It may also be worth considering that there are fewer clergy to go round, so parishes which can afford to do so may pay for an administrative assistant for a few hours a week to deal with necessary paperwork.

Family history research is interesting to us, but this kind of searching does take up time of either the administrator (being paid from parish funds) or the clergy person (being paid from diocesan finds - of which a chunk comes from parish funds). In neither case are those payments intended to support family history research, but to support the pastoral work of the parish (much of which goes unseen by the world at large).

Not all parishes have an easily-searched database of such info. (Gets hobby horse out of stable) I once (at a time when computer memory was more expensive) spent HOURS of time in a very cold parish office creating a database of our parish church's graveyard on Excel - and also helping to create the parish database of people. Sometime afterwards, the new incumbent managed to wipe both resources, and no-one seems to have been aware of any back-up. :( (Hobby horse led back to stable)

It may be that the administrator/clergy person is interested in family history - or the parish's history - and will do the research for free in their own time, or because they perceive some benefit to the parish from what they are doing.

Christine

[Jennie H]

I am often contacted by people enquiring about graves as I am PCC sec and have my email available on the website. We have details going back to 1901 but the rest are at the RO.

I don't charge, but if someone offers I tell them who to make the cheque out to-not me.

Although it takes a bit of my time I feel so many people help me for nothing so it is my way of helping.

[Guy]

I wish people would check their facts before they expound their theories.
The Parochial Registers Act of 1812 clearly refers to fees being payable.
It is one of the duties of the incumbent to ensure the availability of the register for public inspection or transcribing.

The incumbent not only has a right to charge a fee for a search in a register they have a legal obligation to do so (but see below).
The incumbent is however allowed to waive his/her part of the fee. Whether he/she may waiver the fee payable to the Parochial Church Council is a grey area of law.
Diocesan guidelines recommend delegating the right to waiver the fee to the incumbent
The Diocesan Record Office (often the County Record Office) has a right to charge for searches in the registers they hold. Notice should be given to the **

The above of course excludes the Marriage Registers covered by the 1968 Act; it is unlawful to charge any fee for a search of those registers.
Cheers
Guy

** should read-
Notice should be given to the powers of local authorities under section 1 of the Local Government Records Act 1962 (power to promote adequate use of records).
Cheers
Guy

[Christine in Herts]

I think, Guy, that one of the earlier posts does refer to the guidelines for statutory fees on this? (with a link)

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Guy

I don't think anyone was suggesting fees are NOT payable, were they? I have had both experiences - payment not required,(a long time ago, I admit) payment was required. This was when I approached the VICAR. I have never yet had to pay for info from an OPC, but of course have sometimes offered a donation if it is anything more than a quick lookup.

And of course, the incumbent can only produce the registers in the possession of his church. If they have already gone off to the Diocese, or even the County Records Office, then he cannot produce them.

OC

[Guy]

It seems I can’t comprehend what is written then O.C.
In the posts up to my posting (not in original order).

Stuart Penny in the original message asked-
“Also do we 'have a right' of access to this info free of any charges if I were to attend on appointment and look through the burial ledger myself?”

JBee also replied-
“Afraid some churches are desperate for money with dwindling congregations so will jump at any opportunity to fill their coffers - to help keep the church roof on.

It looks like the church in question followed the guidelines of the CofE website when asking for £19. Yes I think its a bit steep but then so could the services of a researcher be too. It may have been a decision of the authorities that they should benefit from this new hobby of Family History when they can.”

Janet in Yorkshire (Jay) wrote –
“You have a "right" to access registers deposited at a record office free of charge.”

In the above the correct answer is the incumbent has a legal obligation to charge a fee (but see my fuller explanation re waiving the fee).
It is also wrong to state one has a "right" to access registers deposited at a record office free of charge.
The law again stipulates a fee for such access to registers held by the Diocesan Archive which again may be waived under certain circumstances.

Wor canny Lass (Anne) replied-
“This is not part of their responsibilities”

Yes it is part of their responsibilities ever since at least 1644 it has been part of the duties of the ministers to “…and that said book shall be showed, by such as keep the same, to all persons reasonably desiring to search for the birth, baptizing, marriage, or burial of any person therein registered, and to take a copy or procure a certificate thereof."

I would also question your further comment “And of course, the incumbent can only produce the registers in the possession of his church. If they have already gone off to the Diocese, or even the County Records Office, then he cannot produce them.”

This is simply not correct. Whilst it is true it would be more difficult for the incumbent to produce he/she could do so if the will was there.
There is a simple procedure for the incumbent to have his/her registers returned to him/her. It is set out under the Parochial Registers and Records Measure 1978
prrm1978

Cheers
Guy

[Guinevere]

It's all very well to pontificate and say what the clergy can and should do but they have far more important things to do than help out family historians with their hobby. Maybe they can have the registers returned but why on earth should they? If the registers are available at CROs then that's more convenient for most researchers who usually want to search more than one church's records.

Some churches have a lay person who responds to family history queries. For example there's a chap in Loddon who will send details of a single surname search for £10. It may be more now. That money goes straight into the church building coffers as he plainly states and I'm happy that it should. After he sent me the list I emailed the CRO and, for a price, they photocoped the entries that I wanted.

In order to preserve more fragile Parish Registers some CROs will not allow you to see the original but have them all on microfilm. If a record is unclear on microfilm they will order up the register for you to check that one entry.

In my opinion that's the right thing to do. It's far more important that these precious records survive for a few more centuries than I see the original record therein.

Many PRs have been filmed by the LDS church, so it's possible to search and copy records without even visiting the CRO or the church.

[Guy]

It's all very well to pontificate and say what the clergy can and should do but they have far more important things to do than help out family historians with their hobby. Maybe they can have the registers returned but why on earth should they? If the registers are available at CROs then that's more convenient for most researchers who usually want to search more than one church's records.

Very good except you have missed possibly the most important aspect of incumbents charging for searches in registers.

The fact it augments their living.

A good few years ago (1978) it was revealed by a report of a Commission appointed by the Standing Committee of the General Synod that twenty million pounds was collected by the church through various parochial fees imposed (burials, marriages etc.etc.). Two percent of that sum came from searches in registers, that helps pay for a lot of pastoral care so please do not suggest that vicars helping genealogists is not important to the church.
Cheers
Guy

[Asa]

I don't see the need to bother the clergy or their staff - we have Record Offices and LDS centres and many PRs are available to buy and churches usually only have very recent records.