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  • Have I opened a can of worms?

    Hi all,
    I have a dilemma, I have looked in the normal places (BMD free and National Archive) but have come across this problem:

    William Moore b circa 1856 Guildford Married Matilda Radfirth Piper, Mar 1883 Brighton.
    By 1891 Census William is married to Mary Jane French (b 1863 North Mundham)
    No record that I can find of a divorce of William & Matilda (she did not die until 1901) and no record of a marriage of Mary Jane French and William.

    Could you clever ones among you find either the divorce of Matilda and William or the marriage of Mary Jane French and William. Could it be there was never a divorce and the second "marriage" never actually took place?

    Thanks
    Jo

  • #2
    Sounds most likely a second marriage never took place, if you can't find one! Fairly common occurence.

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      I've seen the death in Brighton of Matilda.

      I looked for her in 1901 on the offchance she said she was a deserted or divorced wife (unusual to say that, but one of mine said "deserted wife" in 1861!)

      Anyway, In 1901 Matilda is living with a (another??) William Moore! He says he's only 39 and frm Brighton. There's Sarah Piper (Matilda's mother?) living nextdoor.

      So, that's a bit odd, isn't it?

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you sure you have the right William Moore getting married to Matilda? She is with Wm aged 29 b Brighton again in 1891.

        Which person is your relation? Matilda, William or Mary French, or some/all of them?!! lol

        Comment


        • #5
          I think William from Guildford died soon after the 1891 census (in Q1 1892 from memory) By the next census Mary French was Mrs Walter Worsfold (she has two of the Moore children with her)

          Here's the marriage:


          Marriages Jun 1895
          Bargent James Brighton 2b 441
          Moore Mary Jane Brighton 2b 441
          Raysbrook Mary Annie Brighton 2b 441
          Worsfold Walter James Brighton 2b 441
          Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 14-03-09, 10:44.

          Comment


          • #6
            Merry, Thank you for that, I am related to Mary French, William Worsfold and Mary were my Great Grandparents, their daughter Clara was my Grandmother. The details I had from my Mother were that her marriage to William Worsfold was her second marriage, which is correct but my mother always thought that the three Moore children were Mary's, I have just recently got the birth certificate of Minnie Florence Moore to find that Mary was not her mother but a Matilda Piper, I will have to order birth certificates for the other two Moore children to discover who their mothers were. I started doubting myself at this point but a quick phone call to my Mother confirmed that she did have a Aunt Min as well as an Uncle Arthur so I think I have the right family. It would make sense William dying in 1892, but the question has to be if he married Matilda in 1883 and married Mary sometime before the 1891 census where are the records, is it the same man? You are correct there does seem to be two William Moore's on the 1891 census, now my head is hurting! Think this will take some serious use of the old grey matter. Thanks again for your help:p

            Comment


            • #7
              I have just had a quick look at the census records for 1891 which show the two William Moore's. The William Moore married to Mary Jane is showing three children Minnie Mary and Arthur, which would tie in with the information I had from my mother, problem is I have a copy of a birth certificate for Minnie 24/11/1883 showing her mother as Matilda Radfirth Moore nee Piper. The William Moore on the census married to Matilda has three children also, Herbert, Arthur and Mabel?

              Comment


              • #8
                So you bought this cert:

                Births Dec 1883
                MOORE Minnie Florence Brighton 2b 279

                and you probably should have bought this one:

                Births Jun 1882
                Moore Minnie Brighton 2b 219


                The Minnie with William and Mary Jane was recorded as Aged 7 in 1891, so I can see why you got the first cert above!

                However, the Minnie whose cert you bought died soon after:

                Deaths Dec 1884
                MOORE Minnie Florence 0 Brighton 2b 169

                So, looks as if your mother was right about the children being Mary Jane's. Can't find a marriage for Mary J and William though. Maybe it didn't make it to the GRO indexes, or maybe they didn't marry. I did wonder if William was already married?? Have you found him in 1881?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Matilda Radfirth PIPER appears to have married William MOORE in Brighton in Q1 of 1883 [FreeBMD].

                  I suspect that the Mary Jane marriage was Q2 of 1883, regstered Plomesgate (which includes Saxmundham, Suffolk - her PoB is given as "Sussex, Mundham"), in which case her maiden name was PETTITT.

                  Christine
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                    Matilda Radfirth PIPER appears to have married William MOORE in Brighton in Q1 of 1883 [FreeBMD].

                    I suspect that the Mary Jane marriage was Q2 of 1883, regstered Plomesgate (which includes Saxmundham, Suffolk - her PoB is given as "Sussex, Mundham"), in which case her maiden name was PETTITT.

                    Christine
                    When you say "her PoB is given as "Sussex, Mundham"" do you mean when she was married?

                    Jo, what's your source her her maiden name being French?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                      When you say "her PoB is given as "Sussex, Mundham"" do you mean when she was married?

                      ...
                      No - in the 1891 census.

                      I gather there's a Sussex place called "Mundham" so it's not hard to imagine an enumerator in Brighton hearing "Saxmundham" as "Sussex, Mundham"... tho' you'd have thought he must have considered her accent (assuming she had one) peculiar for a 'local'.

                      Christine
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                        ...

                        Jo, what's your source her her maiden name being French?
                        I reckon the source for that is having believed the 1891 enumerator, taken Mundham as meaning North Mundham, there's a Mary Jane, b Q1 1863, Westhampnett (which includes N Mundham), whose surname is FRENCH.

                        Christine
                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There's a Mary Jane PETTIT, registered Plomesgate 1862 q4 - which could give 29 as age in 1891, tho' you'd expect 28.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And there was me assuming Jo had the birth cert of one of the children!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I could still be wrong - it just seems plausible. (I thought of it only because I hadn't realised there was a Mundham near(ish)by to Brighton - which would be the inverse of the enumerator's error, if I am right.)

                              Christine

                              PS - later edit - in 1901 Mary's PoB is specified as "N Mundham, Sussex"
                              Last edited by Christine in Herts; 14-03-09, 17:03.
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                William (b Guildford c 1855) appears to have d 1892 q1 age 35 Brighton 2b-241 (FreeBMD)

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The 1901 census has Mary J now married to Walter WORSFOLD, and children Arthur (12) and (Mary) Elizabeth (15) with her, and - presumbly of the new marriage - Hartie (5) and Clara (1)

                                  Walter James WORSFOLD m Mary Jane MOORE 1895 Q2 Brighton 2b-441

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                    William (b Guildford c 1855) appears to have d 1892 q1 age 35 Brighton 2b-241 (FreeBMD)

                                    Christine
                                    That's the one I looked up and forgot to post! lol

                                    Have you found Miss Pettitt on the 1881 census?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                      The 1901 census has Mary J now married to Walter WORSFOLD, and children Arthur (12) and (Mary) Elizabeth (15) with her, and - presumbly of the new marriage - Hartie (5) and Clara (1)

                                      Walter James WORSFOLD m Mary Jane MOORE 1895 Q2 Brighton 2b-441

                                      Christine
                                      Post #5!! lol

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Children appear to be the first and last of these:
                                        Harriett Frances b 1895 q4 Brighton
                                        Clara Dorothy b 1896 q1 Brighton
                                        Clara Emily b 1899 q 3 Brighton

                                        The middle one might be one of theirs, but there's no death (on FreeBMD), so it doesn't seem to add up.

                                        added later: Can't find a Clara Worsfold of the right age for DoB 1896q1 (i.e. about 5) in 1901.

                                        Christine
                                        Last edited by Christine in Herts; 14-03-09, 18:02.
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                        Comment

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