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View Full Version : Help!! I ordered a cert to help me & now I am totally confused!!



Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 19:38
I have been trying to find out what happened to my ggg grandmother Mary Anderton nee Lowe & decided to order her husband's 2nd marriage cert to check if he said he was widowed or not. The cert has arrived & I am now totally lost.
Edward & Mary married in Asgarby by Spilsby Lincs in 1831, they moved to Barton upon Humber & had 6 children, the last of whom, my gg grandmother Septiana was born December 1843. Edward & Mary are in Barton in 1841. In 1851, Edward is with a Mary Ann Anderton, who is considerably younger than him, there is no sign of his first wife & his surviving daughters are with them & a son John Edward age 3. It later transpires that he was born in Hull in 1848 baptised 1850 son of Mary Ann & a John William Anderton.
In 1861, Mary & her son John have left & are now living with William Towell in Ferriby Sluice (mistranscribed as Handerson), Edward is still in Barton & he now has a son Edward, & on his baptism, it says he is the son of Edward & Mary Ann. Edward dies in 1869, Mary Ann marries William Towell the following year & in 1871, both her sons are living with them.
The marriage cert was for a marriage in Hull in Oct 1851, the occupation & father for Edward are fine, although he gives his address as Albert St Withan, which doesn't appear to exist. He is listed as a widower. She is shown as Mary Ann AnderSon not AnderTon & her father is shown as William Mapplethorpe and she is also a widow, which is what I had expected.
The problem is that I can't find a marriage for Mary Ann to John Anderton, or a death for Edward's first wife. To make it worse, I've found a tree on Ancestry which lists Mary Ann Mapplethorpe as being the mother of John Edward & Edward Anderton, husband John, who died 1859 :eek: and who then goes on to marry William Towell, but no mention of her marriage to my ggg grandfather!
Help, I am VERY confused!!

samesizedfeet
13-03-09, 19:52
Well, to reassure you: the ancestry family tree sounds like one that's been pieced together purely via census records without much investigation into family further than that. It could be that it's a distant branch and the person wasn't prepared to spend money on certificates or it's a speed genealogist more concerned with getting the numbers high than getting the facts right.

So, I guess your real worry is that wife no1 doesn't appear to be dead.

Have you investigated the parish records for a burial as well as the BMD?

KiteRunner
13-03-09, 19:57
Could Mary Ann's first marriage have been before 1837?
I wouldn't worry too much about the ancestry tree but you could try to contact them to ask where they got the info from, or is it a private tree?
And I think you might have another child to find before Septiana - her name suggests she was the seventh, not the sixth!

Christine in Herts
13-03-09, 20:05
...
And I think you might have another child to find before Septiana - her name suggests she was the seventh, not the sixth!

I was about to suggest the same thing!

Christine

Christine in Herts
13-03-09, 20:07
...

The marriage cert was for a marriage in Hull in Oct 1851, the occupation & father for Edward are fine, although he gives his address as Albert St Withan, which doesn't appear to exist.
...

That couldn't include St Swithun as part of the name could it?

I suppose I'm asking whether that's Albert Street, Withan, or a place called Albert Saint Withan?

Christine

Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 20:40
The ancestry tree does have details of Mary Ann's death & also of John Edward's family, but nothing for Edward jr. I am planning to contact the tree owner.
I have searched BMD for Mary's death to no avail & have checked burials in Barton & the surrounding areas. There is a burial for a Mary in 1850 in Barton but that is for her daughter.

I did wonder about there being a 7th child, but one doesn't appear in the baptism records.

The address actually says Albert Street & then underneath it says Withan

susan h
13-03-09, 20:55
There's an area of Hull named WithaM. Therefore the address is probably Albert Street, Witham.

Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 21:02
Thank you Susan, but why does he say he lives in Hull, when he actually lived in Barton. He was there in 1851 for the census & still in 1861 & their sons Edward & William were both baptised in Barton & William buried there.

Merry Monty Montgomery
13-03-09, 21:17
Thank you Susan, but why does he say he lives in Hull, when he actually lived in Barton. He was there in 1851 for the census & still in 1861 & their sons Edward & William were both baptised in Barton & William buried there.

Usually people tell porkies to cover up something!

I've not read all of your first post thoroughly, but could it be that the Anderson/ton thing was to cover up the fact that he was marrying a relative? (not necessarily a blood reative, but maybe a sister-in-law or similar)

That might explain he marrying away from his usual patch......or it might have been a bigamous marriage, or both! lol

susan h
13-03-09, 21:33
As he married in Hull, he may have given Mary Ann's address? Did she live in Hull?

Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 21:37
Well she couldn't sign her name so might not have realised she was down as Anderson & it is an easy mistake to make. On the Ancestry tree, the owner has Mary Ann's husband John dying in 1859, now that John is buried in Barton & I have him down as one of Edward's cousins, but Edward also had a brother John of a similar age. It does all seem very strange. If Edward's first wife was still alive, where was she? Why would she leave her daughter, Septiana who was only 8 when her father married again?

Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 21:41
Mary Ann gave her address as Roper Street, which I understand is also Hull

susan h
13-03-09, 21:47
Lynn, Are you sure you have the right certificate? I cant find a marriage for a Mary Ann Mapplethorp(e) to either an Anderson or Anderton. And if it's highly likely Edward was living Barton, then maybe either he never married Mary Ann, or you should look for another marriage.

Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 22:01
I did wonder that, as I couldn't find a marriage for her either but the other details fit, occupation, father's name, father's occupation. The parish records for Barton do show Edward & Mary Ann having 2 sons.

Lynn The Forest Fan
13-03-09, 22:09
I have just checked the 1851 census & the only Edward Anderton in Hull was 11 yrs old and my Edward is the only one appearing in Lincs,(apart from his dad) so I am fairly sure it is the right cert.

susan h
13-03-09, 22:34
No William Mapplethorp in Lincs on the censuses with a dau Mary Ann of the right age. Seems something isn't right.

KiteRunner
13-03-09, 23:35
She might just not be with her father on the censuses?

susan h
13-03-09, 23:44
She might just not be with her father on the censuses?

Of course that's possible Kite, however, there's no marriage either to be found for a Mary Ann Mapplethorp(e).

Lynn, does the marriage cert give Mary Ann's father's occupation? Does it say whether he was deceased? Who were the witnesses?

susan h
13-03-09, 23:58
Is this a possible death for Edward's first wife?

Mary Anderton, 1st qrt 1850, Glanford Brigg, vol 14 page 256.

KiteRunner
14-03-09, 00:05
Lynn, if all else fails, I suppose you could get the marriage certificate for Mary Ann to William Towell to check what it says for her father's name on there, see if she says William Mapplethorpe again or not.

Who were the witnesses at the Edward Anderton / Mary Ann wedding? Any clues there?

Also I suppose it's possible that Mary Ann's father was William Mapplethorpe but that he wasn't married to Mary Ann so she had a different surname? Also, if I'm looking at the right people, the only census where Mary Ann might have been with her father would be 1841 anyway, and that wouldn't say what their relationship was even if they were together. It's all very confusing!

Lynn The Forest Fan
14-03-09, 08:04
Well I made a bit of a mistake :o, the cert lists her father as Thomas not William, sorry.:o Thomas is shown as being a Farmer.

The witnesses are John & Mary Ann Parker

Edit: I have now found Thomas in 1851, a farmer in East Halton, Lincs, which is the place Mary is listed as being from. No sign of them in 1841 though

My problems are, what happened to Edward's first wife Mary? When did Mary Ann marry John Anderton & when did he die?

Lynn The Forest Fan
14-03-09, 09:23
Is this a possible death for Edward's first wife?

Mary Anderton, 1st qrt 1850, Glanford Brigg, vol 14 page 256.

No this is her 13 year old daughter.

dicole
14-03-09, 11:40
Most of the second marriages I have in my tree, did not take place "at home", but further away. No idea why. They seemed to have gone to the nearest big town, or even just the next parish, and many were by licence not banns.

One couple who lived and married (not to each other) the first time in Speldhurst Kent, went over the border to Frant Sussex to get married to each other.

Lynn The Forest Fan
14-03-09, 14:18
Hull probably is the nearest big town to Barton, so although I am surprised that Edward says he was living there, that is not a big problem. When Septiana eventually married, she married at the same church in Hull as her father & both her & her husband claimed to be living in Hull, when they lived in Barton.

I have found a possible marriage for Mary Ann Mapplethorpe in 1841 to a Thomas Cottingham in Glanford Brigg district, whch would be right. I have also found a marriage in Hull for John Anderton & a Mary Ann, but her surname was Laceby, so no further forward.

The John Anderton in the ancestry tree looks to be wrong as I have found his burial & monumental inscription, which shows him to have had a daughter Emma, who died & her parents were John & Maria according to her baptism & she was with Maria in 1851. This John was my Edward's cousin.

susan h
14-03-09, 15:08
Hi Lynn,

Not a great help, but this looks like Mary Ann in 1841 - transcribed as Mary Mappelshorp.

Class: HO107; Piece 636; Book: 8; Civil Parish: East Halton;

Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 20; Page: 8; Line: 24;

Lynn The Forest Fan
14-03-09, 17:43
Thanks Susan, at least that would suggest that she did exist even though we can't find her marrying a John Anderton. If it wasn't for the IGI having John Edward Anderton baptised 4/3/1850 at Holy Trinity Hull to John William Anderton & Mary Ann, we wouldn't even know that this John existed. I wonder if the baptism record might tell us more?

Yes that looks like them as Thomas is a farmer. I noticed that there is a Laceby family on the same page & I did find a marriage between Mary Ann Laceby & a John Anderton

susan h
14-03-09, 20:08
The John Anderton in the ancestry tree looks to be wrong as I have found his burial & monumental inscription, which shows him to have had a daughter Emma, who died & her parents were John & Maria according to her baptism & she was with Maria in 1851. This John was my Edward's cousin.

Is this John the cousin of Edward? He's living with his brother Benjamin, and has been enumerated as married.

1851 Census.

Class: HO107; Piece: 2363; Folio: 699; Page: 27;

Lynn The Forest Fan
14-03-09, 20:23
Yes, he is with his brother Benjamin, Maria & daughter Emma are in Brigg, where she is listed as daughter in law.

Lynn The Forest Fan
23-04-09, 20:38
Well, I think this problem has now been solved, thanks to Jeanette in Yorkshire :)
She checked the baptism of John Edward & it shows that his father was a mariner & most importantly, deceased. She also checked the marriage of John Anderton & Mary Ann Laceby & this does appear to be the same couple. John is a seaman & his father was Edward Anderton, ropemaker (the same as my Edward's, so they were brothers). Mary Ann's father was Thomas Laceby, farmer.
It certainly looks like Mary Ann Laceby & Mary Ann Mapplethorpe were one & the same but I would welcome your opinions

Jeanette In Yorkshire
23-04-09, 23:14
I'll have to read through this again in the morning...I can't get my head round it at this late hour :D

Astro Lady
24-04-09, 00:13
I'll have to read through this again in the morning...I can't get my head round it at this late hour :D

Ditto ! :confused:
~~waves to Jeanette~~~
*struggles to keep eyes open* :eek::(

Jeanette In Yorkshire
24-04-09, 16:44
Lynn....what age does Mary Ann say she is on her marriage to Edward?

And, do you have the ref for the 1851 census please cos I'm beggered if I can find them :o

Lynn The Forest Fan
24-04-09, 17:21
The cert lists them both as being of "full age", which isn't very helpful.
The 1851 ref is HO107 Piece 2118 Folio 338 Page 12, it shows them as coming from Long Cliffe Leicestershire, which is not what the image says.
I have looked for a Mary Ann Laceby in 1841 & there isn't one. I am convinced that they are the same, perhaps Laceby was her mother's name.

Jeanette In Yorkshire
24-04-09, 17:28
Not a Mary Ann but a Mary. Unfortunately I don't know who her father is/was.

1841 HO107; Piece 636; Book: 8;Folio: 20; Page: 10

Lynn The Forest Fan
24-04-09, 17:55
That reference brings up a Mary Easton not Laceby. :confused:

Jeanette In Yorkshire
24-04-09, 18:00
How odd :confused:

Mary Laceby about 1830 living in East Halton

Lynn The Forest Fan
24-04-09, 18:33
I've found her now, on the same page as Mary Easton & strangely enough, Mary Mapplethorpe whose father Thomas was a farmer.
Obviously East Halton wasn't a large place in 1841

Jeanette In Yorkshire
24-04-09, 18:39
I haven't time to look now Lynn as I've got to take Livvy to tennis, but have you tried tracing Mary Laceby and Mary Ann Mapplethorpe forwards?

Lynn The Forest Fan
24-04-09, 18:44
No I haven't but I will do now thanks :)

Lynn The Forest Fan
25-04-09, 09:10
Well, I've had a look but can't find either in 1851. I think I need to go to Lincs RO to check the East Halton parish records. I can then see if a Mary Ann Laceby is baptised there with father Thomas, a farmer. I can then also hopefully check the marriage of Mary Ann & William Towell to see what maiden name she uses there.

Jeanette In Yorkshire
25-04-09, 10:39
I think that's worth a try Lynn.

Wasn't it illegal for a woman to marry her husband's brother???? That could explain why the married in Hull and she used Anderson instead of Anderton. Would it then be too fanciful to think that she used Mapplethorpe as an alias to further throw people off the scent? Maybe I'm letting my imagination run away with me! :D

Lynn The Forest Fan
26-04-09, 08:57
I agree Jeanette. It is an interesting idea that she used a different name because she was marrying her late husband's brother, I might see if anyone knows about the legality of that. I just think that it is too much of a coincidence for Mary Ann Laceby & Mary Ann Mapplethorpe both to have father's with the same name & occupation, for them not to be the same person.

Lynn The Forest Fan
27-04-09, 16:09
I've just been having another look at the Ancestry tree that I mentioned in my first post & she has now got John & Mary Ann marrying age 15 & 14 in Bury Lancashire :eek:. I have checked & can't find any record of this marriage, so still think my idea may be right. It is strange that she has updated her tree, but still not replied to my message :confused:

Jeanette In Yorkshire
27-04-09, 16:38
Some people are weird like that! LOL. Perhaps she knew that she was guessing and doesn't want to embarass herself by owning up to you.

I know it probably won't help much, but have you thought of asking Valley if John Anderton's death is mentioned in her Trinity House book?

Lynn The Forest Fan
27-04-09, 16:46
Well, I have left a comment on her page to say that she has John's death wrong, we shall see if that gets a reply.

I will ask Valley if she has any mention of John's death, thanks Jeanette :)

KiteRunner
27-04-09, 17:43
Lynn, there used to be a problem with some ancestry messages not getting through - I wonder if that is still the case?

Astro Lady
27-04-09, 18:11
Well, I've had a look but can't find either in 1851. I think I need to go to Lincs RO to check the East Halton parish records. I can then see if a Mary Ann Laceby is baptised there with father Thomas, a farmer. I can then also hopefully check the marriage of Mary Ann & William Towell to see what maiden name she uses there.

Lynn i found this marriage in the Hull times...

Towell-Anderton
20th February 1870 at Weslyan Chapel,Barton by the Rev E.B.Warters.
Mr William Towell to Mrs M.A.Anderton, both of Ferriby Sluice.

Lynn The Forest Fan
27-04-09, 18:54
Oh thanks again Valley. It is a shame that it was in a Wesleyan chapel though, because there won't be any record of that at the RO. Is the Hull times available online?

It is possible that she didn't get the message Kate, but it seems a bit odd that this marriage has now appeared. I think I've found the marriage that she is using, on Familysearch, but it lists Mary Ann's surname as Thorpe rather than Mapplethorpe. She also now has a son Samuel to the marriage, born in Bury 1848, the same year as John Edward was born in Hull :confused:

Jeanette In Yorkshire
28-04-09, 18:26
Well? What did Valley find about John Anderton? Owt good? :)

I don't think the Hull Times is online. Local newspapers used to be on microfilm in Hull but I'm sure I overheard someone saying something about them being at Beverley the other day when I was there. Would you like me to ask next time I go?

Lynn The Forest Fan
28-04-09, 18:38
Sadly, it appears to have been about a different John Anderton, a grocer. But I think he is still related.
Apparently the Times is available to Lancashire library members, which is how Valley found the info.

I have been thinking again about the Mary Ann Laceby/Mapplethorpe problem & now wonder if Mapplethorpe is her real name & Laceby the made up one. The Mary I found in 1841 with father Thomas was only 8 years old in 1841 & so would only have been 14/15 at the time of marriage, so she may have lied about her name & age in order to marry. The tree on ancestry shows her as being Mary Ann Mapplethorpe, but there is no evidence where she got the info from, as there is nothing to link them. Perhaps the info came from John Edward's birth cert, which would suggest that Laceby wasn't her real name. I may well have to order the cert just to be sure.

JayG
28-04-09, 19:14
I haven't read all the thread but don't know if these help

The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Fridat 28/2/1868
Feb 13, at East Halton, Jane Mapplethorpe aged 66 years


The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday 10/11/1871
Larceny at East Halton
William Mapplethorpe & Jonas Stark, charged with stealing a whip, property of Thomas Johnson, farmer of East Halton on 21/10/1871


The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday 8/12/1871
Mapplethorpe - At East Halton aged 73 years, Thos. Mapplethorpe, farmer of the same place


The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday 29/12/1871
Mapplethorpe - 23rd Dec, at Hull Infirmary, aged 23 years Charles Mapplethorpe, of East Halton, near Ulceby

Only ones for Laceby (so far) refer to the place (which is where my Petch's come from!)

Lynn The Forest Fan
28-04-09, 19:27
Thanks Jay Certainly if Mapplethorpe was Mary's real name, then the death of Thomas would be her father.

JayG
28-04-09, 19:49
The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday 1/6/1860
May 26, at St Pauls Church, Sculcoates, Hull, Mr Thos. Laceby to Miss Jane Todd

The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday 5/1/1866
Dec 31, at Beverley, aged 33 years, Mr Bryon Laceby


The Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday 12/1/1866
Dec 31, at Beverley, aged 33 years, Mr Bryan Laceby, wheelwright

The other 78 results refer to the place

Lynn The Forest Fan
28-04-09, 19:52
Thanks Jay, I have ancesters from Laceby the place as well.

Helen Smith Too
28-04-09, 20:49
Going back to your original dilema, have you ruled out the Mary Anderson whose death was register in Glanford Brigg in 1845?

Sept qtr 1845 v14 p200 (image not totally clear on page number).

And also, there is a birth reg for a Benjamin Towel Anderton in Glanford Brigg in 1864?

Lynn The Forest Fan
29-04-09, 09:52
Hi Helen, I've checked the death you found & it is for a 32 yr old mary Anderson from East Halton, so unlikely to be my Mary sadly.

Benjamin Towell Anderton is Mary Ann's son, with William, but she was still married to Edward at the time, hence the name.

Lynn The Forest Fan
22-05-09, 19:42
Well today I have been to Lincoln RO & things seem a little clearer. The Mary Mapplethorpe, I found in 1841 with father Thomas, farmer, turns out to be Mary JANE Mapplethorpe, bpt 3/9/1832, so not the lady I was looking for. However there was a Mary Ann Laceby bp 7/3/1830 who looks like she was the right one. According to the PR, she was the daughter of Elizabeth Laceby. It is possible that her father was Thomas Mapplethorpe the farmer, which would explain the name she used on the certs.

Lynn The Forest Fan
12-09-09, 19:34
I am now ordering John Edward Anderton's birth certificate to see what mary Ann gave as her maiden name. Watch this space!

Lynn The Forest Fan
18-09-09, 17:14
Well today I have received John Edward Anderton's birth certificate & it gives his mother's maiden name as Laceby & his father as John Anderton, Mariner. The address that he was born at, is the same the mary Ann gives as her address when she married Edward, who would have been her bil. It is possible that her father was Thomas Mapplethorpe, farmer as she said on her marriage to Edward, but he was probably not married to her mother, so her name was Laceby. On her first marriage, she possibly gave her father's name as Thomas & whoever wrote it down, just assumed that his surname was Laceby.
I never heard back from the Ancestry tree owner but am interested to know how she got the name Mary Ann Mapplethorpe, but didn't have the marriage to Edward.

So to sum it up, Mary Ann Laceby married John Anderton in 1847, had a son John Edward in 1848. John dies & she marries his brother Edward in 1851 before leaving him & getting together with William Towell, who she married on Edward's death! eek!
But I still don't know what happened to Edward's first wife. :(

Darksecretz
18-09-09, 18:48
I never heard back from the Ancestry tree owner but am interested to know how she got the name Mary Ann Mapplethorpe, but didn't have the marriage to Edward.

simples! she googled and found this thread so altered her info!

call me cynical :Wink::roll-eyes:

Lynn The Forest Fan
18-09-09, 22:12
But I found her tree on Ancestry BEFORE I put the thread up :D