A 'Q' about the 4th Royal Fusiliers and the TF

[Guest]

I think 'we' have got confused with my grandfathers military history. We did think he originally joined the Territorial Force in 1907 but we're not sure now.

We know he served in WWI in fact he went through a lot like most of the men of that terrible war.

We seem to have two medal cards for him, is this possible?

My cousin's daughter acquired the first one in the early 1980's and to be honest we hadn't really thought about it and I had assumed it to be correct (because my cousin's daughter is pretty good at this family history business) until recently. John E Kendall No T-313650.

However, on his baby daughter's death certfiicate in August 1915 he is shown as being in the 4th Royal Fusiliers No 7008. We only got that death certificate a few weeks ago. That medal card we have now got too which puts him in France in 1915 which is correct he served right through WWI and then ended up on the Rhine, he was a regular soldier.

On most birth/baptisms he is being listed as Soldier has his profession nothing more specific. However, on a 1918 baptism where 4 of the children were baptised in 1918 he is listed as Private, Army Service Corps

Can someone shed some light on this conundrum, I have looked at the Long, Long Trail and tried to work out how or which units/battallions he was in but I am more confused now than I ever was.

Thanks

[Orangeblossom]

It is definitely possible to have 2 medal cards. My GGUncle had 2. One has the standard Victory, British War Medals and Star, the other has the DCM on it.

The 7008 card has the standard medals. Does the 313650 card have different ones?

[maggie_4_7]

No not really.

On the T-313650 its just the Victory and British. But the Roll and the Page is completely different to the 7008 one.

On the 7008 there is Victory, British and Star although I think you've seen that one anyway.

[Orangeblossom]

I think the remarks on the 7008 one are significant. I'm no expert, but it looks like the medals were returned. Perhaps the T-313650 is a re-issue of them.

[Night Owl]

The 7008 card has "Dis 30-11-15" on it which I presume means discharged. This is only a guess but I think he may have been a regular soldier before the war and was then discharged. He may then have re-enlisted into the Army Service Corps as a driver (DVR?). (My grandfather was a driver in the ASC and drove troops in France and Belgium in London omnibuses)

The Great War forum are really good at this sort of thing

[maggie_4_7]

You're probably right. I think we're going to uncover the reason why my grandmother would never talk about it. Probably a bit of a scandal given everything I have been told about my grandfather

Either that or its two different people, its a common name.

I definitely know the 7008 is him but I'm not sure about the other. Although I do know something happened end-1915 I was under the impression he had been injured and then he went back to France early the 1916. But that wouldn't mean they would discharge him for being injured. I think he was there until the war ended.

[maggie_4_7]

The Great War forum are really good at this sort of thing

Thank you.

Yes I have put a query up there, they seem very helpful. I thought it was a bit cheeky really as although I've been a member there for over a year and read a lot of queries and replies I have never contributed anything.

I get bit uneasy about always asking for help and asking questions.

Edit to say: Someone on the Great War Forum has come up trumps and explained it all. I've found out more about my Grandfather's military history today than I have known for my lifetime.

[maggie_4_7]

Update:

No wonder 'we have' had ruddy trouble with old 'Jack' K it seems he's been all over the place in the army he's served in at least 3 different regiments between 1905 - 1922 - The Royal Horse Artillery 1905-1908, 4th Royal Fusiliers (1908- Nov 1915) and lastly the ASC from 1916-1922.

He wasn't an easy man in life apparently, my grandfather is proving just as difficult in death to find out what he got up to. After WWI he wouldn't talk about his military stuff much other than saying that it was a bloodbath and all he remembers about it was the officers shouting 'over the top boys'

Yes it is possible to have two medal cards and with different roll and page number for the same medals. Apparently my grandfather joined the 4th Royal Fusiliers as a Special Reserve in 1908 his term of service should have expired in November 1914 however with the outbreak of WWI it was extended and it expired in November 1915 when he was in France where he had been since Jan 1915 having fought at the Battle of Mons and other battles.

So his medal card notes his three campaign medals for his service in that regiment, Victory, British and Star. He then refused the bounty to extend his service it seems quite wisely after being in the battles he had been while in the 4th Royal Fusiliers during 1915 he probably thought his survival was paramount to any amount of upfront money having left a wife and 4 children in England and seen the bloody waste of life at Mons and also one of his daughters died at 18 months in August 1915 in London while he was in France.

However, as soon as he returned he volunteered for the ASC probably the reason for this is if he hadn't he would have been conscripted again into what was considered the PBI (poor bloody infantry) because he had a better chance of survival in the ASC. He still ended up in the thick of it at times, Paschendale etc but it was still better than having to go 'over the top boys'

So he was issued with another medal card with two more medal citations the Victory and British again which appears on another Roll and Page No.

It was a mystery to us until now we weren't even sure which regiment he was in but it appears he had been in three all as a volunteer/regular soldier.

Edit to say: Not sure anyone is interested really I just wanted to write it down here.

[Night Owl]

Thanks for the update Maggie. They certainly know their stuff on the Great War Forum.

[maggie_4_7]

Well I didn't find all of that out on the Great War Forum but I did find out a lot of it and they helped me by explaining stuff so I knew where to look into it a bit further and get to the bottom of it.