Opinions-thoughts please...

[Darksecretz]

Right,

I know I have mentioned this before but I now have new information, I guess i'm doing this more for my benefit than anyone elses, so I can see it written down to plan what/if anything to do next.

• Ann Larkin born 1844 Ireland
• Ann Larkin marries William Brown 31 Oct 1865 @ St Stephens, Paddington, London. (Have cert and parish entry)
• Adaline Brown born 4 Sept 1868 (Ann Brown registers the birth)
• Ann Larkin marries William Brown 20 Sept 1869 @ St. Peter ad Vincula, Tower of London, (have cert)
• William Brown son of Ann and William born 1870 in London (do not know where)
• William Brown the husband dies 1872. (have cert)
• Ann remarries to John Chadbourne 20 feb 1876 @ Parish Church, Kirkby in Ashfield, Nottm.
• Theresa Chadbourne born 25 Apr 1876 @ Kirkby in Ashfield. (have cert) (Bapt 11 Nov 1876, @ St. Barnabas Cathedral Nottingham)
• John Chadbourne born 17 sept 1879 @ Hucknall torkard, Nottm (have cert)
• Theresa dies aged 4 and is buried in parish churchyard,
• Arthur Chadbourne born 10 dec 1882 (have cert) (bapt 31 Aug 1883, Holy Cross RC church, Hucknall Torkard)

Do you not think it odd that only 2 of the children were bapt RC?

do you think the likelihood that the london children would have been bapt?

maybe I am reading too much into it

sorry it has gone on, but it has helped (I think!! me)

[It_Is_I_Leclerc]

Why does ann and william marry twice ?

[Tom Tom]

Did Ann and Wiliam marry twice Julie? Are you sure it is the same William?


Do you have a baptism for John (Born 1879?)

I think the London children will have probably been baptised, because as you know most children were, but London was so busy (and with a common name like Brown) I think you would be lucky to find them even if you did go to the LMA.

Do you know when John Chadbourne Snr died? If he was a committed member of the RC church in the area they lived in then maybe something was mentioned in a obit. in the newspaper?

Maybe they just went to the church that was closest to them, or they didn't like the vicar at one of the churches so moved to the other. Something similar happened in my tree. My Nana married in the church in the next village because there was a lady who stood at the back of the church in her village rattling a collection tin at the end of the wedding service!

[Darksecretz]

THAT is the million dollar question!

it was thought that as William was a soldier that his bosses didnt recogise the 1st marriage, (I didnt know until last year that there was an earlier marriage!! till I found it quite by accident!) I think thats the concensus we came up with. (from his records it seems he was Protestant, and from the baptisms of the other children seems she was a Catholic)

[Darksecretz]

Did Ann and Wiliam marry twice Julie? Are you sure it is the same William?

yep am pretty darn sure same couple, williams dad is FWK and also william on both certs (and signature is pretty much the same from marriage that you got the copy of and his service rec's)


Do you have a baptism for John (Born 1879?)

Nope, Havent looked YET! but nothing showing on me bapt disc where the other two were.

I think the London children will have probably been baptised, because as you know most children were, but London was so busy (and with a common name like Brown) I think you would be lucky to find them even if you did go to the LMA.

Havent got a hope in hell of going to LMA anyway....

Do you know when John Chadbourne Snr died? If he was a committed member of the RC church in the area they lived in then maybe something was mentioned in a obit. in the newspaper?

Have got John sr's death, doesnt look much like he was a RC from what I have found. Theresa was bapt under the name 'CHADWELL' and Arthur was bapt under the name BROWN

Maybe they just went to the church that was closest to them, or they didn't like the vicar at one of the churches so moved to the other. Something similar happened in my tree. My Nana married in the church in the next village because there was a lady who stood at the back of the church in her village rattling a collection tin at the end of the wedding service!

[Macbev]

That's interesting, Julie.
I have something similar here in Australia.

I had Isaac Pinker marrying Norah Walsh in Sydney 1st October 1868...I have the certificate.
He was a soldier in the 50th Regt.
Their son John was born 10 July 1868. Ah, I thought....an illegit. child. But the birth cert for John states his parents were married 5 March 1867 in Brisbane.

I looked for that marriage...and yes, Isaac Pinker and Norah Walsh were married in a R.C church in Brisbane on that date. I have the certificate.

And, like your man, he was raised a Protestant, but she was Irish Roman Catholic. The first child, John, was also raised Protestant, and also a soldier, but subsequent children were baptised into the RC church once the family had emigrated back to Australia in the 1880s

The only thing I could think of was that RC marriages were not recognised by the Army and that soldiers were obliged to go through a ceremony according to the rites of the Anglican Church.

Would be much obliged if anyone can verify this for me.

[Darksecretz]

Bev,

I honestly dont know, but if that was the case, then I'm not sure that applies in my case...

Afaik St. Stephens, Paddington, London ISNT an RC church.

or am I missing something?

[Macbev]

Oh...I didn't realise the first marriage was C/E...

Mind you, my man's 2nd marriage was in one of those rather dodgy chapel outfits with a minister who was probably not a kosher Anglican priest...so I dunno, either :o

[Darksecretz]

so we still both none the wiser...lol.

oh well!

[KiteRunner]

Bev, if a soldier married without permission from the army, the army wasn't responsible for the welfare of his wife and children, which often explains the two weddings, second one being with the army's permission.
Julie, could the explanation be as simple as William wouldn't allow his children to be baptised Catholics but the 2nd husband would? Tho of course it could just be that the London baptisms are yet to be found!

[Phoenix]

At that period, I doubt if there were a complete network of RC parishes across the country. I think the churches were still called missions then - indicating that they were introduced. In Croydon, for a time, the parish priest did not speak English and a layman had to teach the children their catechism.

Ann probably thought it better to have the children baptised, rather than no ceremony, but an RC one if she could. Even in London, an RC church would not necessarily be on your doorstep.

[Darksecretz]

Julie, could the explanation be as simple as William wouldn't allow his children to be baptised Catholics but the 2nd husband would? Tho of course it could just be that the London baptisms are yet to be found!

thats what I'm thinking Kate, that they had been bapt and I havent got the baptisms.. I have an address for Adalines birth, 1868 (Nottinghill) but I dont have one for William 1870 (who knows where! in London)

At that period, I doubt if there were a complete network of RC parishes across the country. I think the churches were still called missions then - indicating that they were introduced. In Croydon, for a time, the parish priest did not speak English and a layman had to teach the children their catechism.

Ann probably thought it better to have the children baptised, rather than no ceremony, but an RC one if she could. Even in London, an RC church would not necessarily be on your doorstep.

well that is certainly something to think about,

[Janet]

I think that you will find in the 1840's there were many Catholic Churches around in London at that time. The East End had many. All the big cities were well provided for, but the provinces and country districts had to wait a few years.

It is probably the simplest of explanations which happened in my family and in many others as well. Irish wife bends to the will of the husband, as was the norm in those days. What was often agreed between themselves was that boys would be brought up in the religion of the father and the girls in the religion of the mother and this was the case mainly within my family although not completely so, and I have both protestant and catholic baptisms within the family and also in my case the father was the English soldier and the mother was the Irish wife.

There was a dispute in my family about one of the children and I have a copy of a letter written by my Grt gfather to the army school his son who had been baptised a catholic, was attending to insist that the boy be brought up in the Protestant faith because that was my Grt Grandathers religion. But his youngest daughter was a pupil teacher at a local Catholic Convent School. This happened in the East End of London around 1880ish but all the churches in the area had been around since the 1840's.

It was always paramount among the Catholic community to be as well versed and educated as their C of E counterparts so as to integrate into the local communities and be quickly accepted so churches and schools were always important and none more so than in the big cities. I know that many convent schools were established in the 1840's in London and where there is a Catholic school there will be a catholic church

I am not sure what part of London you are but try a google of churches to see when they first started.

But also remember that many churches that were around in the 1840's do not exist today, so you may need to look at the area historically rather than armed with a map of today.

Janet

[Darksecretz]

Hmm

according to Adalines birth cert she was born at 29 Camden Place, Notting-hill, (sub-dist is Kensington Town) 1868 is that enough to go on Janet?

[Janet]

Notting Hill is bound to have had its catholic church around the 1860's. You could try a google search for Catholic Churches+1860+Notting Hill to see what happens. You could also try the Catholic handbook of parishes in your local library which will state all the modern ones and maybe start dates for the churches. But may not necessarily help you with the older churches long since disappeared. A Local library to the area should be able to help you with the local history of the churches, to include those that are still there and those that have disappeared so that might be worth a google to find the local library to Notting Hill. Many parishes have their own websites now but tend to come up under Diocese. Now I THINK that Notting Hill should come under Westminster so you could try try googling Westminster Diocese.

This was one of the reasons why you have ghetto areas like Kilburn where all the Irish settled because of the local catholic facilities and the East End where mine were, the Catholic church and school were only a couple of hundred yards away. Catholics took this sort of thing very seriously and made sure they lived within their designated areas so as to be able to attend their schools and churches.

Janet

[Darksecretz]

its so nice to have someone to ask about these things.

I have found a list :

Victorian London Churches - Catholic (Roman) Churches

there dont seem to be many churches that were 'around' then, so thats a good thing?? cos it will be less to search?

[Darksecretz]

I take it all back... just gone thro taking out all that are after the events I have....... and there are still alot of churches to look at.. :(

[Janet]

Sorry you have the extra work :(but hope it will be worth it all at the end.:D I just had a contact from GR who gave me some info which I have just been working through on all census for the last 2 hours and now understand where the contact is coming from so that was worth the bother

Good luck, Janet

[Darksecretz]

LOL!! I know what you mean Janet... infuriating isnt it? but then again if everything was handed on a plate then we'd still moan wouldnt we?

ho hum