Request for information

[gilrossini]

I am conducting preliminary research for a PHD which will examine what research has been done into the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender members of family trees. Would any forum members who have LGBT ancestors in their family trees be willing to share their research with me? More details regarding my research are available to interested parties. Please be assured this is a genuine enquiry, members may correspond privately with me if they prefer, and all respondents will be treated with courtesy and discretion. I am a family historian of 35 years experience and a University lecturer in Family History. Many thanks, Gil Rossini

[Little Nell]

I am quite sure there must be lesbian and gay folk in my family tree but have no evidence of them, so unable to help. Sorry.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Like Nell, I feel sure that some of my ancestors must have been gay, etc, but if they were, everyone has kept very quiet about it!

Not really the sort of thing you put on a census return, is it!

Of course, some researchers may have had male relatives who went to prison for homosexuality, but apart from that, I really don't know how anyone would know?

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Ok I'll own up lol!

I did find one of my relatives on a side twig was a teacher living with her "wife" on one of the censuses. I was surprised at the time that they were so honest but then as she was obviously an educated woman, then why not, good for her

Sadly as she wasn't in my direct line I can't put my hands on the census info but I think it was either 1881 or 1891 so quite a long time ago if that helps.

[Richard in Perth]

One of my gt-gt-grandfather's sisters (Elizabeth Davies) lived with another woman (Sarah Ashbrook) for her entire adult life. Of course, it's impossible to know now what their exact relationship status was based on the available records (long time before civil partnerships!) but I suspect that there could have been a romantic commitment - at least there is circumstantial evidence: Neither Elizabeth nor Sarah ever married, and as far as I can tell they were not related to each other. I first pick them up in 1881, where they are both servants in a solicitor's household in York. Nothing remarkable in that, but then in 1891 they are living together in Cheetham, Lancs. Elizabeth is head of household, whilst Sarah is listed as "boarder". In 1901, Elizabeth is a cook in a household in Bromborough and Sarah is still living (alone) at the same address in Cheetham. By 1911 Elizabeth has moved back with Sarah into the house in Cheetham. Elizabeth died in 1918, aged 62. I must get her death cert as I'm curious to know if Sarah was the informant!

Yes they could have been "just friends" but given that Queen Victoria purportedly refused to make lesbianism illegal because she couldn't believe that women could even contemplate such a thing, then I guess that they would have had to have given the appearance of a platonic relationship in any case - so it would be impossible to prove one way or another, 100 years on.

[JBee]

Sorry but if any of mine were they kept it to themselves as the church which was very strong, forbade it and up until fairly recently so did the law.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Joan

Are you sure that "wife" was not just an enumerator's error!

I honestly think it EXTREMELY unlikely that anyone would admit such a relationship "publicly".

OC

[Roger in Sussex]

What sort of evidence is there likely to be?

I can only think of prosecution, a civil action for libel or slander, or a surviving indiscreet diary or collection of letters. Apart from that we have gossip, and that is hardly reliable.

[Mary from Italy]

Sorry but if any of mine were they kept it to themselves as the church which was very strong, forbade it and up until fairly recently so did the law.

Lesbianism has never been illegal in the UK as far as I'm aware.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Mary

No, Lesbianism was never illegal in this country because no one could bring themselves to tell Queen Victoria about it! (So no law could be passed against it)

However, the church, and society in general, has for centuries shown extreme disapproval of anything they considered a sexual deviation and I think before the 1970s, no one would admit publicly to it.

Two women living together would have been seen by the majority of people as just two women living together, nothing more. Most people wouldn't have even known about lesbianism - I certainly didn't, until I was in my 20s!

I have a gay friend, now in his 80s. His relationships were all sordid, of the public lavatory variety. He told me how difficult it has been for him, living in a small town, for most of his life having illegal sexual desires and never being able to have an emotional relationship with anyone. I am very glad the law has changed, (but too late for him).

OC

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

What sort of evidence is there likely to be?

Exactly.

One of my distant cousins (1860-1933) was reported in a book as being a lesbian, but I don't know if that's true or not.

Other than her, my only LGBT relations are living people.

No doubt all of us have people in our historical trees who were not plain heterosexual (though I would think only a small fraction of actual ancestors, as generally our ancestors married and had children, though I realise this could be a cover), but I don't see how we would be aware of the sexuality of 99.9% of them.

[Little Nell]

"The Well of Loneliness" by Radclyffe Hall was subject to a ban because it was about lesbianism, so even if it was supposedly legal it was certainly not considered acceptable.

[Phoenix]

There were plenty of elderly relatives alive when I started my research, but their (or anybody else's) sexuality was not the sort of question you asked of them.

As others have said, it would be very difficult to infer the bias of any individual in one's tree, particularly pre C20th and in the absence of documentation.

[Mary from Italy]

One of my ancestors, Catherine Mallet, did have a very affectionate poem written to her by the poetess Anna Seward, who's widely believed to have been bisexual (she had a scandalous affair with a man as well as writing passionate poems and letters to women), but Anna is very well known, and I can't add anything to the reams that have already been written about her. Catherine went on to marry and have children, and I have no reason to think that she was anything other than heterosexual.

Anna Seward: To Miss Catherine Mallet.

[Keptin Thedark]

Most people trace their direct line, obviously the ancestor at each generation had a child. So it's unlikely any one will pick up on any 'deviation'.

[Mary from Italy]

Even Oscar Wilde had children - that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Keptin Thedark]

No, I know it doesn't, but if he was not famous and well written about how would you know he was gay? Or even suspect that he was? If he had been an Ag Lab you wouldn't even know his name never mind his S Orientation.

[Mary from Italy]

You wouldn't know, if course, I agree - I was just making the point that it isn't impossible that our direct ancestors include gay etc. people, but as you say, we're not likely to know about it except under unusual circumstances.

[Janet]

I have a James whose spouse was David:D:D! The spouse name was actually Maria.;) It was just one of those census things which did not make sense and how they got David out of Maria I have no idea! But you do get howlers on the Census.;) I certainly have a few! I think I will have to start making some lists.

On a serious note I would say that with few exceptions most of us would not really know, as the stigma right up to the 1960's was horrendous. I am sure we may be able to make guesses, but even then your guess may be wide of the mark as back in the 1800's/1900's it was very common for brothers/sisters and brothers and sisters to live together as well as friends of same sex who were not married and friends of same sex who had been widowed. There are obvious well known cases which have been mentioned here but most people would have kept it in the dark.

Oh dear pardon the pun quite unintentional Keptin Thedark!

Janet

[Keptin Thedark]

Janet, that's about as unintentional as the reply I have in mind, which I wont post, but to quote you I am sure we may be able to make guesses, but even then your guess may be wide of the mark ;)