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Have I lost the plot

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  • Have I lost the plot

    Hi,
    I so need help. I am trying to trace my Great grandfather.
    He died 1955, under the name Joseph Thomas Dowd, had my Grandfather Herbert in 1911, under the name Thomas Dowd, married his wife Ada Taggart 1893 under Thomas Dowd,wedding certificate saying his father was Richard. All of this Liverpool.His date of birth points to 1869ish>

    I cannot trace a birth I am happy with, there is a Joseph Dowd Preston1872, BMD,is that not too far away? Then on the Mormon site, a great birth Joseph Dowd Nov 1867, father Richard, mother Mary, cannot find a record of this else where. I loved this one, until I tried to confirm this with the census records, there is a Mary Dowd with a Joseph T Dowd Toxeth Park 1871, but she is a widow, and tracing her back she was a widow on the 1861 census before my Joseph or Thomas was born.(I got the Mary and Richard Marriage certificate)

    The plot thickens now! This Mary Dowd who married Richard, was formerly called Mason, but it seems she remarried and became Mary Morris,(she married Nathaniel Morris in 1872.) But on the 1881 census it looks as if my Thomas reappears with Nathaniel and Mary, under the name Morris.

    I am just hoping someone can help or point me in the right direction, I am very new to this

    Thank You

  • #2
    Atticus

    Hello and welcome to FTF.

    You say you "cannot find the 1867 baptism anywhere else". It is in the church registers of St Peter Liverpool and as it is an extracted record it is likely to be reasonably accurate, although you do need to see the original to be sure.

    As the marriage to Richard appears to have been a brief one, then the marriage is possibly in the same church register.

    Final possibility - she lied, she wasn't married to Richard Dowd.

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi OC
      I understand that the record is correct as it is from St Peter register, where do I get an index for that birth to get a certificate. I sent away for a certificate with all the information from the Mormon Family History site but the records office said they did not have enough information to give me a certificate, this is what I am now in search of. To see the originals would I have to go to the records office in Liverpool.

      Could have she married Richard Dowd in 1851, he died she had Joseph by someone else, but used dead Richards name. Being a bit green about all this, would Mary have been able to have Joseph baptized with out a father, or would friends and family go along with her in the cover up, bearing in mind Richard had been dead a good while?


      Thank you

      Comment


      • #4
        Unfortunately in 1867 it was not compulsory to register a birth, so Joseph Thomas may simply not have been registered.

        you can hire the film of the parish registers to view at your nearest LDS family history centre - look on their site for details of your nearest one.

        How do you know when Richard died? Yes, it is just possible she lied to the Vicar, but would have had to have been very hard-nosed to do that - most people are reluctant to lie in the house of God!

        OC
        Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 16-02-09, 16:42. Reason: Name correction

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Oc
          I do not really know when Richard died, I am only going by the census and tracing from the 1871 census where there is a Josepeh T Dowd, with a Mary as his mother, who is a widow and his date fits in with his birth, and where the correct area (Joseph) Thomas lives in 1901, with his wife and family. Tracing the 1871 family to the 1861 census, I seem to meet the same family, Mary already a widow! and also the bit about the 1881 census I put in my first post, when the family turn into the Morris family. Sorry I know this is confusing.

          Thanks

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Not sure if this changes anything, but the maybe father Richard was a sailor! Could she just put down she was a widow, but really mean he was at sea. I cannot find Richard's death, perhaps he died at sea, how would I know this or find out. Or if I could find him on the census, on a boat, again not sure where to look.

            Thank atticus

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Atticus
              Someone on Ancestry has a tree for this family.The marriage date (which you have) is 28th Jan 1851 St Nicholas Liverpool so they should be together somewhere in the 1851 census. The only Mary I could find about the right age was married to a Mich Dowd. I thought the image might show it as Rich but it is definitely Mich and a squiggle. The Ancestry tree says that he died in 1860 but I can't find a death for a Richard but there is one for a Michael Dowd in Manchester. The children are named as Richard c 1854, Mary Ann c 1858, Catherine Alice born c 1860 ( there is a baptism for her on the IGI, parents Richard and Mary) and Joseph born c1868. Mary Dowd (widow) has Mary, Richard and Catherine with her in 1861 and in 1871 + Joseph. I have found a couple of references to Sherrington (as a middle name) Dowd, have you heard this name antwhere in your family?
              Moggie

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Moggie ,
                This is very interesting. Let me see if I have got your plot. The names of the children, were they on the family tree you found on Ancestry or on the census or both.
                I have never came across the name Sherrington. According to Joseph's wedding certificate his father is Richard, my only clue

                Thank you atticus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Atticus
                  The names of the children were on both the Ancestry family tree & on the 1861 & 1871 census.
                  Moggie

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Moggy

                    I will have to join Ancestry, after your earlier post, I looked as much as I could at the family trees, I think it could be a great help, thank you for pointing me in the right direction, I could see other branches of my tree on it, now I need the full detailshttp://www.familytreeforum.com/images/smilies/biggrin9gp.gif

                    Thank you atticus

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi atticus,
                      If you only need to join ancestry to make contact with the tree owner, pm me with your details and I will try a contact for you giving your email for a response if you like.
                      Joining ancestry is expensive!
                      Margaret

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Atticus
                        Because you gave the details from the 1861 & 1871 census I thought that you had a sub to Ancestry. I can save these images for you and send them to you if you send me a PM (click on my name) with your e mail address. I see that Margaret has kindly offered to contact the tree owners for you but having had another look at these trees I think the info re Richard's death is just guesswork. His age of 30 when he died could have come from him being "of full age" or 21 on the marriage cert and his year of death given as 1860 from the fact that Mary was a widow in 1861 with a 9 month old daughter.
                        I may have a suspicious mind but I am begining to think that there is something not quite right about Mary Dowd and her children. I have no proof but I think her son Richard was calling himself Richard Sheriton Dowd when he and his wife Elizabeth had two children baptised on 6th May 1880. Mary Elizabeth & Richard Solomon (Mary's father's name). It looks as if Mary Elizabeth died soon after the baptism. There is also a birth reg in 1857
                        W. Derby for a Mary Sherrington (slightly different spelling) Dowd who could be Mary Ann daughter of Mary in 1861 & 1871 & who is going under the Morris name in 1881.
                        Moggie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Moggie

                          I agree with you - the dates on the Ancestry tree look like guestimates to me and there is no firm date of death for Richard.

                          I wondered if there are in fact two Marys involved here, not just one. Also, Dowd is an Irish name and Richard may just have gone back to Ireland, leaving Mary "free" to marry again. If she didn't marry Richard Dowd in the first place, then widow covers up her real status nicely.

                          OC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            O C
                            I think Atticus has the marriage cert but she hasn't given us any details. Quote (I got the Mary and Richard Marriage certificate) The plot thickens now! This Mary Dowd who married Richard, was formerly called Mason, but it seems she remarried and became Mary Morris,(she married Nathaniel Morris in 1872.) The details on the ancestry trees are that the marriage took place at St Nicholas church Liverpool on 28th Jan 1851 but I still can't spot them in 1851. I think the only way forward is to get a copy of the Nathaniel Morris/Mary Dowd marriage cert in the hope that she put her father down as Solomon Mason which would confirm that we have the right Mary.
                            Moggie

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi sorry trying to catch up on messages.

                              Yes I have the marriage certificate of Richard Dowd and Mary Mason

                              Details 20th Jan 1851,St Nicholas Church, Liverpool, age for both full, bachelor,spinster. He was a Mariner, no work for Mary. Richard's father John. Mary's father Solomon. Witnesses I think John Newdall and Elizabeth Edward.

                              The plot is getting very thick!! I have not looked into the Sherrington bit yet, but I will.

                              I think the idea of getting the new marriage certificate is a good one.

                              Thank You atticus

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hi Atticus
                                Just found this in the IGI
                                Marriage of Nathaniel Morris to Mary Mason or Dawd 1st July 1872 at St Nicholas Liverpool. What do you think?
                                Moggie

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Hi I think it looks like her, it is also in the BMD, I am going to order the marriage certificate to see if it has Solomon as her father's name.

                                  On the 1871 census, what does Mary's occupation say, it looks like Maryle Keeper! Must be my eyes.
                                  atticus

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Mangle keeper!

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Have just sent the ancestry tree contact details by pm.
                                      Margaret

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Hi
                                        So she has gone from dress maker to letting people use a mangle!

                                        Comment

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