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  • Hi all. New to forum- general q's

    Hi everyone,

    Just a little background about where I am in terms of my search before a few general questions:
    I`m relatively new to all this, and have only been searching since last October; my grandmother is Scottish, so tracing back her tree has been relatively simple (if expensive!) by using Scotlands people.
    The problems I have are the other three English branches (Maternal Grandparents and paternal grandfather). Because of divorces, I really know very little about them apart from a few names. I`ve taken steps to try to find out more by subscribing to ancestry (Oz version- thanks again Glen), and ordering my grandparents marriage cert. to hopefully find out the first names of his parents (whom my Nana only ever called Mr and Mrs Keen!).
    On the other side, the commoness of the name Cook, and in particular,William Cook in Newcastle is making me rip my hair out!
    So:
    1) According to the birth index, my paternal grandfather is listed as Frederick Keen with the other surname as Hannell. I`ve been searching high and low for a marriage between Keen and Hannell with no luck. What I`m wondering now though is: is it possible that the parents were unmarried? I never considered it as I thought it was all a bit taboo.
    2) According to the IGI there were three other Keen/Hannell births in Amersham, all girls. Off the top of my head they were 1911, 1923, 1925 and 1927(my gf). I feel this would rule out the unmarried theory IF they are all related. I had pretty much dismissed the first one being relevent, but with the advent of the War, I guess its a possibility.
    3)As far as the Scotish side has gone, I`m into the OPR`s and Irish immigrants. I`ve got some possible leads from the IGI on the Irish members. Can anyone offer any advice on how to follow this up as its a little sketchy to say the least.

    I`ve forgotten what else I was going to ask, but any tips on where I can go from here would be much appreciated. With the lack of censuses and living relations I guess it might just be an expensive lucky dip of buying certificate after certificate. Oh well, apologies for the novella, I`ll get the hang of this soon!

    Craig

  • #2
    Unmarried parents were as common then as they are now. It was just spoken about less.

    Alternatively, the parents may have married well before, or well after you have been searching.

    Looking at the 1916-2005 birth index, there appears to be another boy as well born 1918. Mother's maiden name only has one L though.

    Had a quick look for a marriage, but there was only a female keen to male Hannell.

    I'll post again if I think of anything helpful.

    It might be useful to buy Frederick's birth certificate to find out the names of his parents. That would make the search for a possible marriage easier. Just a thought - do you have his marriage cert?

    Another possibility, is if his father was overseas at any point, he married the mother there.
    Last edited by Orangeblossom; 09-02-09, 14:04.
    Tracy

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Craig

      welcome to FTF!

      I guess you really need to sit tight and wait till the cert arrives, did it give you a EDD?

      one avenue you could try, though I suppose it is abit (ok, alot!) of a longshot, and that is to have a look in the 1911 census and see if anything shows itself there, they 'might' have had other children born before MMN were included in the index's
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #4
        hi and welcome
        have you tried FreeBMD - there is a keen/hannell wedding in wales in 1913 I also found the four children you mentioned including Fredericks birth on that site.
        I think you will haveto wait forthe certifcate to come thru tho to be sure which route to follow.
        angelina
        Angelina

        Comment


        • #5
          Welcome to FTF.

          You probably already know this but you mentioned Ancestry and ordering a cert in the same sentence which rang an alarm bell. Did you order the cert through Ancestry? If so that is one of the most expensive ways to do it. English certs should only cost £7 if you know the references.
          Jackie

          Comment


          • #6
            Hallo Craig

            Sometimes people just pretended to be married (shock!) sometimes for years. No checks to see if they were telling the truth. Often it was because one party was already married and divorce was too expensive/socially unacceptable.

            On the other hand perhaps the Welsh wedding might be the right one. If you've got Scots, Irish and English ancestry why not go for Wales too!!
            ~ with love from Little Nell~
            Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

            Comment


            • #7
              Another thought is that if the lady Hannel(l) was previously married then her marriage to Mr Keen would likely be in her previous husband's name whilst the name recorded against the subsequent children's births would be her maiden surname!

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for your replies!
                I ruled out the Welsh wedding, as it is a male Hannell to a female Keen.
                I`m currently waiting for my GP`s wedding cert to come through. They state five working days to get processed then there`s the post, so I guess about a week for that.
                Don`t worry Night Owl, I went direct to Bucks County Council. £7 plus £1 debit card fee, is that a reasonable price? I saw ancestry charge £20!
                Depending on the info on the cert, that will determine whether I need to buy his birth cert too, but I`ll cross that bridge when I come to it!
                I know all about the Hannell spellings- I got a bit impatient and researched a few Hannell familes I could find in Bucks. Hannell, Hannel, Hannill, Hanwell...
                One of the branches, I got back to 1750, so fingers crossed that`ll be the right one!!
                Sorry Darksecretz, what is the EDD? I guess MMN is mother`s maiden name, yeah?
                Thanks again,
                Craig

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Merry,
                  That`s something that hadn`t even popped into my mind- you learn something new everyday! If that`s the case though, then my GF`s marriage cert, and any subsequent birth certs will be useless?

                  Craig

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Found another birth in 1914, so 1911 is looking more likely to be theirs too.

                    Just having a look at the WW1 Pension records to see if there's any matches between the names. Luckily there aren't too many records to look through lol
                    Tracy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Craig
                      It might be wise to keep a note ofthe welsh wedding as I found brother and sister of one family married sister and brother of other family!!! you may find a connection in a few months.
                      angelina
                      Angelina

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here's a possible:

                        if Elizabeth Hannell married Henry Leiley:

                        Marriages Jun 1901
                        Barrett William Amersham 3a 1328
                        ELDRIDGE Lois Amersham 3a 1328
                        HANNELL Elizabeth Amersham 3a 1328 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                        HAWNELL Elizabeth Amersham 3a 1328
                        LEILEY Henry Amersham 3a 1328 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

                        and then she married William keen:

                        Marriages Sep 1911
                        KEEN Alfred Amersham 3a 1951
                        Lailey Elizabeth Amersham 3a 1951

                        that would work (I'm not saying this is the right person!)

                        There is an Elizabeth Hannell aged 1 month on the 1881 census b Great Missenden Bucks which is in Amersham district (she is Lizzie in 1891 and 1901). There is an Elizabeth Lailey (can't tell if she is married, widowed, divorced or single) aged 29 in 1911 living at Great Missenden. She is head of house and doesn't seem to have any other Laileys with her.

                        This Eilzabeth would be young enough to have children throught to the mid-1920's.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks Orangeblossom,
                          Where can you access the WW1 info? Is it free?
                          Craig

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks Merry, I`ll try to dig into that.
                            If I remember rightly isn`t Lizzie the older sister of Ruth? She was the one I always suspected, but hey! If it`s the same family, thats the 1750 one!
                            Craig

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Konovolov View Post
                              Thanks for your replies!
                              I ruled out the Welsh wedding, as it is a male Hannell to a female Keen.
                              I`m currently waiting for my GP`s wedding cert to come through. They state five working days to get processed then there`s the post, so I guess about a week for that.
                              Don`t worry Night Owl, I went direct to Bucks County Council. £7 plus £1 debit card fee, is that a reasonable price? I saw ancestry charge £20!
                              Depending on the info on the cert, that will determine whether I need to buy his birth cert too, but I`ll cross that bridge when I come to it!
                              I know all about the Hannell spellings- I got a bit impatient and researched a few Hannell familes I could find in Bucks. Hannell, Hannel, Hannill, Hanwell...
                              One of the branches, I got back to 1750, so fingers crossed that`ll be the right one!!
                              Sorry Darksecretz, what is the EDD? I guess MMN is mother`s maiden name, yeah?
                              Thanks again,
                              Craig
                              Estimated Delivery Date

                              and yep MMN is Mothers Maiden Name

                              ;)
                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              .......I find dead people

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The WW1 information is on Ancestry. If you have a subscription, you can access it within that subscription (assuming you have more than the essentials package). It's listed under the Military section.

                                I've just come across a James William Keen, living in Amersham. Looking through it now to see if anything stands out.
                                No, he married Mary Ann Pearce in 1908 :o
                                Last edited by Orangeblossom; 09-02-09, 14:45.
                                Tracy

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Konovolov View Post
                                  Thanks Merry,
                                  That`s something that hadn`t even popped into my mind- you learn something new everyday! If that`s the case though, then my GF`s marriage cert, and any subsequent birth certs will be useless?

                                  Craig
                                  Erm.....your grandfather's marriage cert would tell you who his father was plus occupation.

                                  I'm not entirely sure which birth cert you mean by subsequent?! Frederick Keen's birth cert would tell you his father and mothers names plus his mother's maiden name and any other surnames she had in between if she was married more than once. (if it was filled out correctly that is!)

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Orangeblossom,
                                    I just purchased the UK package from the Oz site, so I don`t know if its included. I`ll have a quick gander though.
                                    Craig

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                                      Erm.....your grandfather's marriage cert would tell you who his father was plus occupation.

                                      I'm not entirely sure which birth cert you mean by subsequent?! Frederick Keen's birth cert would tell you his father and mothers names plus his mother's maiden name and any other surnames she had in between if she was married more than once. (if it was filled out correctly that is!)
                                      Sorry Merry, I meant my gf`s birth certificate, and those of his possible siblings. Looks like I`ll need to buy my gf`s birth cert to see if the Lailey or any other hypotheses are the way to go.
                                      Thanks,
                                      Craig

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The UK Heritage one? That's what I have so you should be able to access them.
                                        It has Medal Cards, Service Records (incomplete) and Pension Records (also incomplete I think) for all UK WW1 servicemen.
                                        Tracy

                                        Comment

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