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Knee Deep in HAWORTH/HOWORTH's can you help !

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  • Knee Deep in HAWORTH/HOWORTH's can you help !

    Sorry if this is very long winded, but I started out as an execise to marshall my thoughts but when I did, it raised a few queries which I hope you all can help me with.

    This particular line of Haworths/Howorths has long been one of my brick walls and at least a right pain in the **** and got me perplexed when I recieved a marriage cert for James Haworth/Elizabeth Dewhurst see below.

    I set my problem out in reverse chronological order i.e. the way I approached it knowing who my grandfather was.

    One of the biggest problems is that I'm knee deep in James Haworths/Howorths and Elizabeth's, Haworth/Howorth is a very popular name around the Rossendale area of Lancashire abit akin to Jones in Cardiff !!

    I've put in red were I think there is a issue, but I would appreciate any of you having a look and see if I've gone wrong anywhere (that is a- you don't go to sleep, b- slope of for a vast number of drinks or c- decide drinking is much better than reading this drivel ! and pour another.

    Many thanks in advance if you can get through it and help with the queries

    Date
    Who
    What

    01/07/1897
    Harold Foy
    From Birth Cert. F, Michael Foy, MMN Mary Elizabeth HOWARTH
    born at New Barn Newchurch Lanc's

    27/03/1897
    Michael Foy & Mary Elizabeth HOWORTH
    From Marriage Cert, Married at St Peters Catholic Church Haslingden
    Groom Michael Foy age 22 Bachelor, Cotton Throstler, living at 11 Hope St Cloughfold,
    F Patrick Foy a Stone Quarrier
    Bride, Mary Elizabeth HOWORTH, age 21, spinster, Cotton Throstler, living at New Barn, Newchurch,
    F JOHN ? HOWORTH deceased Wollen Miller. (is this a mistranscription or hard of hearing registrar, or have I gone off the correct trail? see Elizabeth's BC below
    Witnesses: John R Taylor & Annie N Taylor

    1891
    Mary Elizabeth HOWORTH
    1891 Census: RG12/3348/16/25
    14 Miller Bank Lane Newchurch
    all HOWORTH's Born Newchurch area except Elizabeth Newton Heath
    Elizabeth HOWORTH 35
    John 18
    Mary Elizabeth 16
    Fredrick 13
    Eleanor 11
    James 10
    Arthur 5
    Wilfred 2
    George Taylor 26 )
    Charles Stott ) Boarders
    Newton Stott )

    1890
    James HOWORTH
    Died Q1 age 40 Haslingden 8e/93

    1881
    James HOWORTH
    1881 Census RG11/4129/56/28
    St Georges Row Newchurch
    James HOWORTH 31 B Waterfoot Fulling Miller
    Elizabeth 27 B Newton Heath
    John D 8
    Mary Elizabeth 6
    George H 3
    Eleanor 1
    Margaret DEWHURST 74 Waterfoot Occupier (Head) (This is I believe is James G Mother)

    28/11/1874
    Mary Elizabeth HOWORTH
    From Birth Cert, F James HOWORTH, Wollen Miller, MMN Elizabeth Robinson, born at Georges Row Miller Barn Newchurch

    1871
    Elizabeth HAWORTH
    1871 Census RG10/4135/45/16
    Georges Row Miller Bank Newchurch
    all born Newchurch
    Margaret Dewhurst 64 Head
    Elizabeth Howarth 45 Daughter
    James Howarth 22 G son
    Elizabeth E Hargreaves 23 G daughter
    + Hargreaves family

    22/08/1871
    James HOWORTH & Elizabeth Robinson
    From Marriage Cert, Married at Haslingden Registry Office,
    James HOWORTH age 22, Bachelor, Under-carder, living in Newchurch,
    F James HOWORTH deceased a Quarryman.
    Elizabeth Robinson, age 19 Spinster, Power Loom Operator, living at Old Gate Newchurch,
    F Isaiah Robinson deceased Stone Mason
    Witnesses: Absolom Omerod & Elizabeth Alice Omerod

    1861
    Elizabeth HAWORTH
    1861 Census RG9/3054/103/9
    Miller Barn Newchurch all born Newchurch
    Peggy Dewhurst 55 Head
    Elizabeth Haworth 35 Daughter
    Elizabeth E 14 G Daughter
    James 12 G Son
    + Lodger

    1851
    Elizabeth HAWORTH
    1851 Census H0107/2248/114/3
    14 Georges Row
    John Dewhurst 45 Flag Dresser
    Peggy 45
    Elizabeth Haworth 25 Lodger
    Elizabeth E 4
    James 2

    13/07/48
    James HOWORTH
    From Lanc's OPC
    Baptisms: 27 Aug 1848 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England
    James Haworth - Child of James Haworth & Elizabeth
    Born: 13 Jul 1848
    Abode: Miller Barn
    Occupation: Labourer
    Baptised by: A Harden
    Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1848 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [194], Entry 1548
    Source: LDS Film 1040341
    (it would appear that James's father died before he was born, I have tried to get a BC for james with f James and M Elizabeth, but despite Lanc's Cert Services looking for over a week they couldn't find one, I don't think it was complusery then was it register?)

    08/01/1848
    James HAWORTH
    From Lanc's OPC
    Burial: 8 Jan 1848 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England
    James Howarth -
    Age: 25
    Abode: Miller Barn
    Buried by: Wm Brewster
    Register: Burials 1833 - 1848 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 243, Entry 1944
    Source: Film 1040341
    (Need to get DC Haslingden Q1 1848 Vol 21/371)

    11/05/1846
    James HAWORTH & Elizabeth DEWHURST
    From Marriage Cert
    The Parochial Chapel Newchurch
    James HOWARTH full age, Bachelor, Carder, living in Waterfoot.
    F James HAWORTH a Butcher (Query on this can't find a James as a butcher in 1841 census see below)
    Elizabeth DEWHURST, full age, Weaver, Born Miller Barn.
    F John Dewhurst a Stone Mason
    Witnesses: Absolom Stott & Samuel HAWORTH(see below)

    1841
    Elizabeth DEWHURST
    1841 Census H0107/0505/1/11
    Cowpe Lench Waterfoot
    James Dewhurst 35 Stone Mason
    Margaret wife 30
    Elizabeth daughter 15

    1841
    James HAWORTH
    1841 Census H0107/506/14/8/8
    Hollin House Lower Booths
    James Haworth 45 Farmer
    Mary Haworth 45
    Betty Haworth 20
    John Haworth 20 Fulling Miller
    Daniel Haworth 20 ditto
    Mary Haworth 15 Wollen Weaver
    James Haworth 15 Carter (I think should be carder)
    Jane Ann Haworth 12
    Haworth Haworth 4
    Edward Haworth 1
    Samuel Haworth 15 Wool Sorter
    (The MC states that James's father was a butcher, but here he is I think, as a farmer, what makes me think that this is the right family for James is that the witness to his marriage above was Samuel his brother the wool sorter, but I could be completely wrong AGAIN)

    If you have reached this far well done and any help is appreciated have I got the correct pedigree ? and further assistance in tracing the Dewhursts and Haworths/Howorths back even further would be just grand.
    Thanks
    L

  • #2
    I suppose what you need to do first is to establish whether James is the father of your Mary Elizabeth, before tracing James's family back. Have you looked at the copy of the marriage cert which has the actual signatures etc on (rather than a copied-out one) to see if the father's name is John or James on there? And have you found out where the Taylors fit in? Of course it is possible for the father's name to be wrong on a marriage cert but it is so annoying when it happens!
    KiteRunner

    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh, o.k., I see them on the 1901 census now - you didn't mention that one!
      Elizabeth Taylor Head M 42 Lancs Harpurhey
      Maggie Taylor Daur 6 Do Turnpike(?) in Rossendale
      James Howarth Son S 20 Tram Conductor Do Booth Fold Waterfoot(?)
      Arthur Howarth Son S 15 Errand Boy Do Miller Barn Waterfoot
      Michael Foy S-in-Law M 28 Navvy(?) Do sorry can't read it
      Mary E Foy Daur M 25 Charwoman Do Georges Road Waterfoot
      Harold Foy Grandson 3 Do Turnpike in Rossendale
      Maggie Foy Grandaur 2 Do Parkers Bldgs Rossendale
      (and two boarders)
      Last edited by KiteRunner; 07-02-09, 18:12.
      KiteRunner

      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

      Comment


      • #4
        So at least we are sure that your Mary Elizabeth is the same one who is the daughter of James and Elizabeth, because of her brothers who are with the family in 1901.
        KiteRunner

        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello Kite
          Thanks for replying:
          The MC I have for Michael Foy/Mary Elizabeth has been photocopied onto a new sheet by Lanc's Cert Services so the original signatures are on it, but ME's fathers name has been transcribed by the registrar, my own view is that he got it wrong, but I will stand corrected, believe me I searched high and low for a ME Howarth with a father John who marries a M Foy, I had black hair when I started LOL.
          The Taylor's crop up a few times as lodgers on the censii but don't know if all are same family. However I have another query which I will ask at a later time revolves around ME's mother having another child called Taylor
          Regards
          L

          Comment


          • #6
            No, I'm sure your Mary Elizabeth is James's daughter because of the 1901 census.
            KiteRunner

            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh sorry about that forgot the 1901 census,
              ME goes on to remarry a James Johnston later but I've got all the deatils
              L

              Comment


              • #8
                When she married James Johnston, what did she say her father's name was?
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by It_Is_I_Leclerc View Post
                  1841
                  James HAWORTH
                  1841 Census H0107/506/14/8/8
                  Hollin House Lower Booths
                  James Haworth 45 Farmer
                  Mary Haworth 45
                  Betty Haworth 20
                  John Haworth 20 Fulling Miller
                  Daniel Haworth 20 ditto
                  Mary Haworth 15 Wollen Weaver
                  James Haworth 15 Carter (I think should be carder)
                  Jane Ann Haworth 12
                  Haworth Haworth 4
                  Edward Haworth 1
                  Samuel Haworth 15 Wool Sorter
                  (The MC states that James's father was a butcher, but here he is I think, as a farmer, what makes me think that this is the right family for James is that the witness to his marriage above was Samuel his brother the wool sorter, but I could be completely wrong AGAIN)

                  The 1841 census doesn't give relationship to head of household - are they listed in the order shown above, because if so then this suggests that Samuel isn't the brother of James in this family?
                  KiteRunner

                  Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                  (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KiteRunner View Post
                    When she married James Johnston, what did she say her father's name was?
                    Kite
                    ME Married William James Johnson 11/09/1909 Lancaster Registry Office
                    " Mary Elizabeth Foy age 32 Widow Father James Howarth (Deceased) a Felt Miller"
                    L

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KiteRunner View Post
                      The 1841 census doesn't give relationship to head of household - are they listed in the order shown above, because if so then this suggests that Samuel isn't the brother of James in this family?
                      Kite
                      The census runs over 2 pages
                      the main boy of family live as transcribed at Hollin House Lower Booths
                      and it is transcribed as Samuel is living at (GH New) Hollin House Lower Booths
                      L
                      Last edited by It_Is_I_Leclerc; 07-02-09, 20:13.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KiteRunner View Post
                        I suppose what you need to do first is to establish whether James is the father of your Mary Elizabeth, before tracing James's family back. Have you looked at the copy of the marriage cert which has the actual signatures etc on (rather than a copied-out one) to see if the father's name is John or James on there? And have you found out where the Taylors fit in? Of course it is possible for the father's name to be wrong on a marriage cert but it is so annoying when it happens!
                        Kite
                        Not fully, and this has been of much unsaid debate for many of year also you will notice the Rogers in the 1901 census again another area of some discussion.
                        You will see on the 1901 census ME's mother now calling herself Taylor along with child called Maggie, this is the other area I will need to explore at a later date
                        L
                        PS now off for meal and DRINKS will be back in the morning
                        Last edited by It_Is_I_Leclerc; 07-02-09, 20:13. Reason: added PS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In 1841, any (cattle) farmer would also be a butcher, so that isn't a problem.

                          OC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Since Mary Elizabeth says her father was James on her second marriage cert then I would say case closed on that bit.
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OC
                              Thanks for that, that's the reason I thought it may be the correct family, although I must admit I've still got several degrees of uncertainty, it's only a tentative link with Samuel.

                              Kite
                              Thanks for the double check, it would of helped if I'd put the 1901 census and 1909 marriage on in the first place.

                              Now I'm reasonably happy that the linage of the Haworth/Howorths is OK upto the 1841 census, as I said above this is where I do believe there is some uncertainty.

                              Also on the 1841 census Elizabeth Dewhurst's father is down as James whilst on the 1851 he is called John, unfortunetley he appears to die before the 1861. But again on her MC he is stated as John, another case of John's and James's being wrongly transcribed !.
                              If he is a John (and I think that is the case) then there is an entry in the Lanc's OPC for the baptism of an Elizabeth to a John/Margaret which roughly aligns with ages on the censii, there is also a sister Sarah Ann a couple of years younger but I can't see any trace of her after she'd been baptised.

                              Baptisms: 9 Oct 1825 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England
                              Elizabeth Dewhurst - Daughter of John Dewhurst & Margt
                              Abode: Holt Mill
                              Occupation: Labourer
                              Baptised by: D Rathbone
                              Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1833 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 170, Entry 1358
                              Source: LDS Film 1040341

                              Baptisms: 7 Nov 1827 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England
                              Sarah Ann Dewhurst - Daughter of John Dewhurst & Margt
                              Abode: Holt Mill
                              Occupation: Labourer
                              Baptised by: D Rathbone
                              Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1833 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 204, Entry 1629
                              Source: LDS Film 1040341

                              Regards
                              L

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I'll have a go at the Dewhursts later but I'm about to go out. But just thought I should ask whether you have found any baptisms for James Haworth born about 1823 and his brothers and sisters? There are submitted entries for Daniel and Mary on the IGI at Ebenezer Chapel, Bacup - or at least I think it is them but I haven't looked all these places up on the map, so I don't really know if it's in the right area! If that is them then it suggests they were nonconformists which is very common in Lancashire and might give you a clue where to look for James's baptism.
                                KiteRunner

                                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                Comment

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