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The Winner of WDWTYA? 5th February 2009 is....

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  • The Winner of WDWTYA? 5th February 2009 is....

    bulmanm!

    Well done Matt! Is your birthday over yet? :(:D

  • #2
    Apparenty Matt's birthday isn't over yet, so he has offered his win to someone else!

    The new winner is GallowayLass

    Well done!

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    • #3
      Am ever so excited at the prospect of dislodging a few bricks in my Dad's side of the tree. Am at work just now so will get myself together and post my probs later this evening when I'm home. Big Brother took FTM off my work pc last year and I am stuck without it.
      Even if I'm no further forward at the end of the week, I am grateful for folks taking the time to try

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      • #4
        *frets about possibly going north of the border* :D

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        • #5
          ;) no need to panic Merry - my brick walls are Cheshire/Shropshire/Flintshire.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
            *frets about possibly going north of the border* :D
            Has your passport expired? :D:D
            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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            • #7
              OK you great and kind folks - here it is!

              Apologies in advance for the length of all the this before I get to my questions. I’m sticking in everything I have in case it’s the nugget that someone can pick up on. Any little thing that topples a brick would be brilliant.

              My great great grandfather James MURRAY was born 1823-1825 in Nantwich, Cheshire (from censuses)

              His wife was Anne STOCKTON was born 1821-1831 in Hankelow, Cheshire (from censuses)

              He has been variously a pedlar, hawker, licensed hawker, licensed lodging house keeper, dealer, general dealer and in 1901, a marine store owner on his own account (all from censuses) but oddly enough on my great grandfather’s birth certificate 1858 he is a labourer in a brickyard. This occupation is given again on his daughter Sarah Ann’s birth certificate 1856. All their children after James in 1858 were registered by their mother. She has become literate by 1866, previously the certs. give an X her mark. The first two, Sarah Ann and James were registered by their father, again with an X his mark.

              Anne had also been a hawker in 1871 census but has no occupation in the others.

              Both appear to be dead between census day 1901 and census day 1911.

              They have been given as man and wife from 1851 onwards but I know they were not actually married till 4 September 1856 in the parish church Ellesmere, Shropshire. (I have this certificate) From what follows later, I am unsure if James had been married to two different Ann(e)s and may not have been the bachelor he claimed to be in 1858.

              On marriage, James’ father is given as Thomas Murray (labourer) and Anne has no father given.

              I have found a possible match for James’ baptism and his parents and siblings on IGI but I have no firm evidence. That family are Thomas MURRAY and Ellen WHITTINGHAM married 4 June 1823 at Acton, Nantwich, Cheshire. They had children James bapt. 5 September 1824; Joseph c.1827; Thomas c.1829; Jane c.1832 and Ann c.1834.

              On the 1851 census they are lodgers in what I think says Hardington, Whitchurch, Shropshire with a Mr and Mrs Williams. Their surname is given as MORRIS instead of MURRAY. James’ occupation is pedlar followed by 2 letters I can’t make out. They have a daughter Mary aged 3.

              On the 1861 census they are in St. John’s Hill, Ellesmere, Shropshire. They now have 4 children. Mary as before aged 12, Ellen aged 8, Sarah A. Aged 6 and James aged 3.

              Both Mary and Ellen are given on censuses as born in Nantwich, Cheshire. The rest are Ellesmere and I have their certificates. They are – Sarah Ann 1856, James 1858, Elizabeth 1862, Jane 1866, Rebecca and Thomas (twins) 1869, Louisa 1870 and George 1873.

              Now I can get to the problems I have;

              1. Is there any evidence that Thomas MURRAY and Ellen WHITTINGHAM are the correct parents for my great great grandfather James MURRAY
              2. Who were Ann STOCKTON’s parents. At least who was her mother?
              3. I can’t indentify birth certificates for the first 2 children Mary c.1849 and Ellen c.1853
              4. (a)/(b) Mary and Ellen are still at home on the 1871 census as single but are not there on the 1881 census. Have they married or died?
              5. (a)/(b) Elizabeth 1862 and Jane 1866 are still at home on the 1881 census but they too are not there in 1891 census. Have either of them married or died?
              6. Where were James and Anne in 1841? Still single I presume?
              7. In 1901 George Murray born 1873 in Ellesmere was a blacksmith in a mine. He was living in Woorgreens, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire with a “wife” and 2 sons. From the birth certificate of the younger one, the wife’s name was Jane E. Gardner. Can anyone find a marriage certificate? According to the census she was born in Hyde, Gloucestershire.

              UPDATE 7/2/09 12 noon

              Many thanks to Kiterunner and Mary from Italy. With their info. I'm going to run with Thomas and Ellen as the correct parents for GGGrandfather James. I'd love to see the original parish register entry for their marriage in 1856 though. The Audlem entry for baptism of Ann Stockton is going into my tree with notes for the source. I'm going to try to identify the rest of Thomas and Ellen's children in later censuses. Maybe somebody out there is descended from them...

              That's 1 and 2 ticked off, 3 -7 anybody? ;)

              UPDATE 9/2/09 12:55

              3. Have sent off for births certs for Mary and Ellen from Cheshire Register Office and included copies of the Cheshire PRP entries for reference.
              4.(a) Have sent off for the marriage cert. for Mary Stockton and William Ellison
              5.(b) Have sent off for the marriage cert. for Jane Murray and George Henry Day.

              I've now got all of living children for Mary and William and for Jane and George from cenuses to 1901. I've also got George's parents and living siblings in 1871 and 1881. William's parentage remains a mystery till I get the marriage cert. I also have found William and Mary's death dates.

              I'm still stuck on 4.(b), 5.(a) 6 and 7

              If it's quiet at work today I'll trawl through a list for the 1891 census that I've made of all the Elizabeth's of the right age who are married and were born in Ellesmere
              Last edited by GallowayLass; 09-02-09, 16:25. Reason: additional info for George Murray

              Comment


              • #8
                There's a baptism for an Ann Stockton in Cheshire parish records which might be yours:

                CPRdb - Version v3.3 - 7 March 2005

                I'm not very familiar with the site and it's a bit confusing, but if I've read it rightly she was illegitimate, baptised in Audlem on 7/10/1831, mother Jane Stockton, servant, from Hankelow, and father Edward Roberts, farmer from Whitchurch.

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                • #9
                  There's a 12-year-old Ann Stockton working as a servant in Hankelow in 1841. It may or may not be significant, but there's a couple called John and Jane Murry living next door.

                  Class: HO107; Piece 116; Folio: 5; Page: 4

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                    1. Is there any evidence that Thomas MURRAY and Ellen WHITTINGHAM are the correct parents for my great great grandfather James MURRAY
                    Starting with number 1, lol, have you looked at the full baptism entry / found them on the 1841 census to check if Thomas's occupation matches? Though I know "labourer" won't prove much if it does say that.
                    James called his second daughter Ellen, which makes them look likely. I don't suppose any Murrays were witnesses at James's wedding, were they?
                    KiteRunner

                    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This may or may not help, but as I couldn't see them in 1841 I started trying to find any of Thomas and Ellen's family in 1851. There is a Joseph Mury age 23, Coal Miner born Nantwich, Cheshire, living in Clay Cross, Derbyshire, with wife Mary, 33, born Cromford Derbyshire, and children Hannah 4 and Thomas 1. It gives us another alternative spelling of the name, at least.
                      Jane Murray age 19 born Nantwich living in as a servant with a family called Winby in Crewe; ancestry's transcription says she is Sister to Head but I think it is just S for Servant (Do crossed out). She has a daughter Mary Frances age 3.
                      Hmmmm... then there is a Thomas Morrey age 50, widower, born Staffordshire, labourer and bricklayer, living at Shavington cum Gresty, Cheshire, with "Housekeeper" Elizabeth Edwards, widow, age 50 born Coppenhall (sp?) Cheshire, son Thomas Morrey age 16 born Nantwich, Mary Edwards "Daur" (of housekeeper??) age 15 born Nantwich and Fredrick Edwards "Son" age 6 born Wyburnley(?) Cheshire. I know that Thomas jr would be too young for the one you mentioned, but I wonder whether the first one could have died and they could have had another one?
                      Then there is Ann Morrey age 17 born Nantwich living in as a servant at Hough, Cheshire with a family called Brassington.

                      So now we have Mury and Morrey as alternatives.
                      Last edited by KiteRunner; 06-02-09, 23:40.
                      KiteRunner

                      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Variant spellings of MURRAY

                        Thanks for the reminder Kiterunner - I forgot to add all the variants I've come across. The 1 R spelling is new to me.

                        MURRAY, MURREY, MURRY, MORREY, MORRAY, MORRY, MERRY (the 1900 birth in Gloucestershire although the census is ok) and the MORRIS on 1841 census but I think that's just because the head of the household got his lodger's name wrong.
                        Last edited by GallowayLass; 07-02-09, 10:16.

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                        • #13
                          Witnesses to the 1856 wedding

                          No there weren't :(

                          Both bride and groom put an X their mark so I've not even got a signature to compare. Also they were both "of full age" and their addresses are simply Ellesmere, so not a lot of help there.

                          James registered the births of Sarah Ann and James and there again it's X his mark.

                          The witnesses were Samuel Ralphs (also illiterate) and Maria Jones

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                          • #14
                            Full baptisms

                            I've visited the site that Mary gave me and yes it is hard to use.

                            I found the children that I found before in IGI and in all cases the father is Thomas (labourer). Can I now be confident that this the right family?

                            Are the transcriptions on this site everything there is to know? I see in some peoples posts on other topics that vital margin notes are sometimes not transcribed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I suppose the only way to be certain there is nothing missing from the transcription would be to check against the original entries, but probably there is nothing missed out as the baptisms would be written on the standard form at that date.
                              You can't be 100% certain it's the right family without some corroborating evidence, but if I were you I would work on the assumption they are the right ones and keep working on that part of the tree, tracing everyone backwards, forwards and sideways, and hopefuuly the extra evidence will eventually emerge. I would say they are almost certainly the right family.
                              KiteRunner

                              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Many thanks Kiterunner. BTW - who is the lovely lady with the "Mona Lisa" smile in your avatar?

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                                • #17
                                  Might be worth an e-mail to Cheshire Archives - as Ann Stockton's father is named in the baptism, there may well be a bastardy order which might contain additional information.

                                  I had a good look for James' baptism on the Cheshire PR site, but I didn't find him.

                                  I also checked FreeReg, but they don't seem to have much for Cheshire.

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                                  • #18
                                    congratulations well done enjoy brenda xxx

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                                    • #19
                                      I suspect (although it's only an educated guess) that these may be the baptisms for Mary and Ellen (IGI extracted records):

                                      Mary Stockton
                                      Female

                                      Event(s):
                                      Birth:
                                      Christening: 14 MAY 1848 Nantwich, Cheshire, England

                                      Parents:
                                      Mother: Anne Stockton

                                      Ellen <Stockton>
                                      Female

                                      Event(s):
                                      Birth:
                                      Christening: 25 NOV 1852 Nantwich, Cheshire, England

                                      Parents:
                                      Mother: Ann Stockton

                                      You'll find both baptisms on the Cheshire PR site. In both cases the child was born in Nantwich Union Workhouse, no father named, mother Ann Stockton, cotton spinner.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The reason I think those baptisms may be correct is because I searched FreeBMD for births for Mary (1848-1850) and Ellen (1851-54) in Nantwich; there were 6 Mary Stocktons, one Mary Ellen Morrey, two Ellen Stocktons and no Ellens with the surname Mor* or Mur*.

                                        I discarded Mary Ellen Morrey as there was no Ellen with a similar surname, and the only Mary and Ellen Stocktons baptised in Nantwich with mother Ann that came up on the IGI and the Cheshire PR site are the ones listed above.

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