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  • Im completely stuck!!!

    I dont imagine anyone can help me, but you never know
    My grandfather was called Albert Edward Carter dob 4/12/1909 I know this cos it what he called himself when he joined the army in 1931 and its the name he put on his wedding certificate in 1939. Only I have found a family and exchanged emails and photos with a family that also have an Albert Edward Carter born 1909 in their tree, they Alberts daughter also has the original birth certificate!! and both men are claiming their father was Robert Sidney Carter from Tottenham, clearly someone is using someone elses identity and Im pretty sure its my grandad thats lying. This has been a total shock to me, I have sent many emails to the family and we can all see there is a family likeness but they have no udea who my grandfather could be. He isnt a brother because they are all acounted for.
    On the 1911 census for this family there is an uncle living with family (Arthur) my grandad always said his name was Albert but he liked to be called Arthur, he also said he was born outside of marriage.
    Here is my problem, Im wondering if Arthur might have been the father, would his name have been put on the birth certificate if the parents were not married? if he was born our of marriage is there any way I can trace who his mum might be and indeed who he might have been born?? I dont even know the real year he was born and feel totally stumped. any ideas of where to search next would be gratefully recieved
    Thanks

    ps nearly forgot does anyone know the maximum enlisting age for British army in 1931 as this may be why he changed his name as he was too old using his own name
    Last edited by linda c; 03-02-09, 23:15.

  • #2
    Sorry, Linda, I'm a bit confused. Does your grandparents' marriage certificate say that Albert's father was Robert Sidney Carter? And your contact has another marriage certificate for an Albert also giving father's name as Robert Sidney Carter? Isn't it possible that it is the same Albert on both certificates and he got married twice? Have you compared the two signatures to see if they look similar?

    As for your question about if Arthur could have been the father, I'm not quite sure whose father you mean, but yes, a father's name can certainly be put on a birth certificate even if the parents aren't married - either if the father goes along with the mother to the register office to register the birth, or if one of the parents goes to register the birth and pretends they are married.

    Not sure about the army age, but if you are saying he was much older but pretended to be 22 it sounds a bit unlikely.
    KiteRunner

    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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    • #3
      This is where a DNA test would be useful, always supposing both men had sons who had sons!

      OC

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      • #4
        I know this is a bit far fetched..............but, could there be two Robert Sydney Carters who had sons, Albert Edward???

        Albert Edward was a very common name at that time.

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        • #5
          I was going to trawl for you (it's that or housework...lol)

          BUT.....................that little darling with the noose is there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry, Linda................I didn't welcome you to FTF.

            Welcome!!!!!!!!!!

            Can you tell me what district Tottenham would be.

            Comment


            • #7
              Do you know where he was born?

              A Robert Sidney Carter married an Edith Clara Sparrow in Edmonton - Mar qtr 1910 3a 617

              Could this be his parents and they married after he was born?
              Last edited by JBee; 04-02-09, 00:18.



              Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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              • #8
                There's another marriage for Robert Sydney Carter in Edmonton 1902 to either Emily Lawrence or Jane Pearce.

                Is Edmonton in the right area????

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                • #9
                  There's 4

                  Albert Edward Sparrow's born between 1900 and 1910.

                  Mar 1902
                  Sparrow Albert Edward Edmonton 3a 451

                  Sep 1902
                  Sparrow Albert Edward O Yeovil 5c 363

                  Dec 1904
                  Sparrow Albert Edward Norwich 4b 183
                  Sparrow Albert Edward C W. Ham 4a 207



                  Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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                  • #10
                    What happened to "their" Albert Edward? Is he properly accounted for? And, come to think of it, is Robert properly accounted for?

                    If they have his (Albert's) original birth cert, and he was born before the parents' marriage then the cert should be in his mother's surname I would have thought. What is her maiden name, so we can track down that marriage.

                    OC

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                    • #11
                      Need more certs methinks...........


                      There is Robert Sydney Carter marrying Emily rebecca Lawrence or Jane Pearce Sep 1902
                      There is a death for a Emily Carter age 26 Edmonton Dec 1902

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                      • #12
                        Why can't that kid with the noose use it on himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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                        • #13
                          There's loads of Albert Edward Lawrences/Pearces born in London - 1900 - 1910 including

                          Births Mar 1901
                          Pearce Albert Edward W. Ham 4a 235
                          Pearce Albert Edward Islington 1b 223

                          Births Jun 1901
                          Pearce Albert Edward Wandsworth 1d 681

                          Births Dec 1901
                          Pearce Albert Edward Pancras 1b 166
                          Pearce Albert Edward Islington 1b 375

                          Mar Qtr 1902 - was that before the marriage Libby mentioned?

                          LAWRENCE Albert Edward Islington 1b 298
                          LAWRENCE Albert Edward T St Geo.East 1c 333
                          Pearce Albert Edward Fulham 1a 311
                          Pearce Albert Edward St.Geo.H.Sq. 1a 470
                          Pearce Albert Edward W.Ham 4a 506
                          Pearce Albert Edward S Pancras 1b 111
                          Pearce Albert Edward V Hendon 3a 207


                          Also there's

                          Dec 1909
                          Lawrence Albert Edward Islington 1b 314
                          PEARCE Albert Edward Fulham 1a 186
                          Last edited by JBee; 04-02-09, 11:06.



                          Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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                          • #14
                            I'm lost already BUT I do know that Tottenham is in the Edmonton registration district
                            Zoe in London

                            Cio che Dio vuole, io voglio ~ What God wills, I will

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                            • #15
                              There is a tree on ancestry that has Robert Sydney Carter born 27 Jan 1877 marrying Emily Rebecca Lawrence 17 July 1902. Has Robert dying in 1956.

                              No children in the tree for them but they do have bother Robert's and Emily's dates of birth not just the years.
                              Fiona. xx

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                              • #16
                                in 1911 living at 63 POYNTON ROAD, Tottenham are

                                Robert Carter, 1877
                                Emily Carter, 1877
                                Lily Carter, 1899
                                Sydney Carter, 1903
                                Ernest Carter, 1906
                                Albert Carter, 1910
                                and Arthur Carter, 1885.
                                Fiona. xx

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  put your name down for the weekly draw,who knows if you wil be the chosen one brenda xxx

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                                  • #18
                                    Which man (if there are two!) is this:

                                    Death Registration:
                                    Name: Albert Edward Carter
                                    Birth Date: 4 Dec 1909
                                    Death Registration Month/Year: Mar 1991
                                    Age at death (estimated): 81
                                    Registration district: Norwich
                                    Inferred County: Norfolk
                                    Volume: 10
                                    Page: 2180

                                    and if this isn't the man who was your grandfather, do you know when your grandfather died? (and have you got his death cert??!)
                                    Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 04-02-09, 12:29.

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                                    • #19
                                      Hello everyone and thanks for all your searches.
                                      To Mary (last post ) the birth and death you mention is from the correct Albert Edward Carter

                                      Ill try and tell you all that I know

                                      Robert Sidney Carter married Emily Lawrence 1902
                                      she already had a child Lily
                                      Robert and Emily went on to have 3 more children
                                      Sydney 1902
                                      Ernest 1905
                                      Albert Edward 1909

                                      My grandfathers story was that he was illigitimate born dec 1909 and never knew his family was brought up by his grandmother until her death when he was 6 and then an aunt until he was 18.
                                      His story got me curious about who his mum might have been, all I knew about him for sure was that he died Aug 1982 Havering and married my nan in 1939
                                      I ordered his birth certifiate based on his death register and it came back with the parents Robert and Emily Carter Edmonton (tottenham)
                                      I searched Genes reunited and found someone with the same parents on their family tree ( the grandson of Sydney ) . I told them that I had a brother for Sydney and he said I must have made a mistake as they personally knew their uncle Albert and my Albert was not the same man. they even provided me with a picture of the brothers Sydney and Albert together in 1933 and their Albert is not my grandfather.
                                      I assumed I had made a mistake and ordered a copy of my grandfathers marriage and to my surprise found the same name again, my grandfather had put his fathers name as being Robert Sidney Carter deceased, At the time of my grandparents marrage Robert Sidney Carter was very much still alive as I have since found out that he did not die until 1956.
                                      I got back in touch with the grandson of Sydney Carter and we agree that two men were quite clearly using the same name but only one of them could be the correct Albert, he asked his cousin who is the daughter of their Albert and she had her fathers original birth certificate so we can only assume from that that my grandfather is the imposter!!!
                                      I am looking to see if my grandfather might have really been the other brother Ernest but both grandchildren say this is unlikely as they knew him and again he doesnt look like my grandfather, they do agree that my grandfather looks like Robert Sidney Carter though their grandfather.... are you all still with me LOL , this got me thinking, on the 1911 census Roberts brother Arthur was living with Robert and his young family maybe my Albert was a son of his ( back to the illigitate story) ??? but I really dont know how to look for him, my grandfathers name probably wasnt even Albert or Carter!!! he always used to say that his name was Albert but he prefered to be called Arthur I am assuming because that was actually his real name but I have no proof.
                                      The Carter family I am searching is from Tottenham Edmonton.

                                      Please if anyone can understand y long message or be able to help further could they let me know.

                                      Thanks again everyone
                                      Linda x

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                                      • #20
                                        Oooh what a nightmare!

                                        When you say the other family have the original birth cert, do you mean the one issued in 1909?

                                        Presumably their relative died sometime before 1983 (ie before the online searchable death indexes)? Do you know if they have their chap's death cert and if it has the same date of birth on it, if the death was after 1969? (I'm sure it does, but just exploring all avenues! lol)

                                        I was going to suggest that your grandfather innocently bought a copy of the wrong birth cert, but he would hardly say he was born outside marriage if he had a birth cert he thought was his and the parents on it were a married couple, so (if he was an imposter!) he must have known, rather than having made a mistake!!

                                        If it makes you feel any better, OH has a similar difficulty with his grandfather!!

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