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  • The Lonsdales - any ideas?

    Having sent for some certs I'm more confused than ever about this family, and I'd be grateful for any ideas as to what was going on!

    John Lonsdale (b. Maidstone about 1823) had 9 children between about 1844 and 1862, 3 born in Kent and 6 in St Giles, London. The London baptisms are in the IGI with mother Charlotte. I have 2 of the children's birth certs, one giving her as Charlotte nee Tonkin and the other as Charlotte nee Thomsett.

    But in the 1851 census John's wife is Harriet (born Tunbridge Kent); in 1861 and 1871 she's Charlotte (born Hastings Sussex); 1881 it's back to Harriet (born Tunbridge).

    Confusing enough, but the thing that's really thrown me is John's marriage cert. 31 Oct 1863 John Lonsdale, bachelor, age 39, father William Lonsdale, married Harriet Guest, widow, age 44. Her father was...Thomas Lonsdale (who was also apparently a witness)

    So...Was Charlotte/Harriet the same person - if so why the different birthplaces? Where does Mr Guest come in, and when did she find time to marry him?

    All suggestions gratefuly received!

  • #2
    Lindsay

    Did the marriage cert come from the GRO? I have two GRO marriage certs where the father's names have been transposed, the bride getting the groom's father and vice versa.

    I also have one where the father's first names have been transposed - his father's name John when it should have been James, and hers James when it should have been John.

    OC

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    • #3
      OC,

      That was my first thought, but one of the witnesses is Thomas Lonsdale - OK, not necessarily the bride's father, but no reason to think it isn't.

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      • #4
        But wouldn't Thomas Lonsdale be more likely to be a relation of John's?

        OC

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        • #5
          Well, I'm no further forward! lol

          I doubt they are the same woman - Did neither woman die as a Lonsdale?

          Comment


          • #6
            I know the feeling Merry lol!

            Harriet Lonsdale died 1891 - death registered by Ann, daughter of John and Charlotte. On the death cert she descrbes herself as Harriet's daughter.

            OC - Thomas Lonsdale could be a relative of John, but he's also down as Harriet's father.

            By the way, I can't find Harriet in the census when Charlotte is down as John's wife, and vice versa.

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            • #7
              Did you find a marriage to a Charlotte, or is she just on the birth certs?

              Is it possible that John was running two families?????

              Anne

              PS: I'm struggling to find them at all on the censuses (tried 1861 and 1871). Lonsdale is such a 'northern' name that anyone born in Kent of Sussex should jump out but they don't.
              Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 29-01-09, 14:26.

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              • #8
                Are you sure that there weren't 2 John Lonsdales? There is a death of a John Lonsdale in St Giles June 1865 1b 330. John and Charlotte with 6 children were in St Giles 1861
                Robert

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                • #9
                  No, no marriage to Charlotte, and John describes himself as a bachelor when he marries Harriet.

                  If he was running 2 families it was fairly shameless - they stayed in the same street for a good few years whether his 'wife' was calling herself Charlotte or Harriet!

                  Does anyone know how close Tunbridge and Hastings are? Could someone born inbetween alternate them as a place of birth, do you think? I found a Charlotte Thomsett born Ticehurst Sussex at about the right time (goodness knows where the name Harriet (and Mr Guest!) come from if tis is the case though!)
                  Last edited by Lindsay; 29-01-09, 14:24.

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                  • #10
                    rkic - that's my John Lonsdale! Death was registered by Harriet, address 23 Little Wild Street.

                    In 1861 John and Charlotte were at 11 Little Wild Street, and in 1871 Charlotte and the children were at 23 Little Wild Street.

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                    • #11
                      Its over 25 miles between the two. Maybe she was actually born in one and brought up in the other?

                      Anne

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                      • #12
                        Yes, Anne, that's what I was wondering.

                        Of course, that still leaves me with the mystery of why Charlotte and Harriet apparently had different maiden names...(Lonsdale and Tonkin/Thomsett) As fast as I talk myself into thinking they were one person, I find other arguments against!

                        (In the 1861 census they're transcribed as Lansdale in Ancestry, and by 1871 John is dead and it's just Charlotte and the kids)
                        Last edited by Lindsay; 29-01-09, 14:41.

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                        • #13
                          Lindsay

                          I don't think her maiden name was Lonsdale and I don't think her father's name was Thomas Lonsdale, I think the GRO have made a transcription error!

                          OC

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                          • #14
                            I suppose you could get some more of the children's birth certificates to see what the mother's name is on each of them. I wonder if she was pretending to be a widow when they got married because they were trying to cover up the fact that they had been living together for years? I was trying to look for stuff on ancestry to help but it's broken at the moment.
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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                            • #15
                              OC,
                              You could be right -it seems to be an unnecessary complication!

                              I think I feel a visit to the LMA coming on...wish Ancestry would hurry up with their digitisation project

                              Kite - I hadn't thought that maybe Mr Guest was an invention - I was thinking along the lines of it was an early marriage and she couldn't marry John Lonsdale until Mr Guest died.

                              I wonder what the neighbours called her???
                              Last edited by Lindsay; 29-01-09, 15:14.

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                              • #16
                                Right I have a theory

                                1841 HO107 piece 463 book 5 folio 34 page 6
                                Thomas Guest (30) married to Harriett (25) and children Henry (5) and Charlotte (2) in Tonbridge

                                1851 HO107 piece 1615 folio 210 page 8
                                Thomas Guest (46) married but living with sister Ann and children Henry (14) and Charlotte (12) in Tonbridge

                                1861 RG9 piece 493 folio 28 page 26
                                Thomas Guest (57) married to Frances (57) and 2 grandchildren

                                He's there later as well

                                IGI has a Thomas Guest marrying Harriett Tomkin in Tonbridge in 1833

                                Could be that the Harriett Guest in 1841 then moved in with John Lonsdale but wasn't free to marry him. For some reason they decided to marry in 1863 (he died 2 years later - perhaps he was ill?)

                                Does this make any sense?
                                Jackie

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                                • #17
                                  Ooh, Jackie, that looks interesting!

                                  I'll have to have a think about that...she must have been young when she married Thomas Guest - her dob from censuses and death certs is 1814-1820, but it's quite possible.

                                  I knew you clever lot would be able to help! Thank you!

                                  Wouldn't you know Ancestry would choose this moment to keep hanging when I go there :(

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                                  • #18
                                    Just realised that her age is out but perhaps she wasn't exactly truthful about that either, especially if she was older than John
                                    Jackie

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                                    • #19
                                      IGI has a Harriet Tomkin christened 1816 in Tonbridge. If that was her birth year she would have been about 16/17 when she married Thomas Guest
                                      Jackie

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                                      • #20
                                        Harriet/Charlotte seems to have had a fairly elastic view of her age. And I think she was older than John - on the wedding cert sh adnitted to being 4 years older so it could well be more!

                                        They might have married in 1863 because John was ill - he died of TB in 1865. Or perhaps Mr Guest had died?

                                        I'll try to follow up the people you've found once Ancestry starts behaving itself.

                                        Thanks again Jackie -I like your theory!

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