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  • Question about possible record of gg grandfather

    Hi all,

    me again, Merry had ben helping me with this, good on Merry but I'm a little stuck on something and she thougth you igh be able to help. Basically I bought and downloaded a military record for one John William Gardiner born Pimlico 1855, righ name, age and place. Merry was almost sure it is my John William. What is stumping me though is on his record is says that, from the period of 14th Feb 1882 to 11th November 1884 he was serving on the HMS Hercules yet on the marraige cert it says tht when he was married 5th July 1884 his 'residence' at the time was HMS Revenue Cutter Chance. Surely he can't be in two places at once? Wondering if anyone could shed any light?

    Cheers

    BC

  • #2
    Was there a HMS Hercules before this one then?
    HMS Hercules 1868

    Click here to order your BMD certificates for England and Wales for only £9.25 General Register Office

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    Jacob Sudders born in Prussia c.1775 married Alice Pidgeon in 1800 in Gorelston. Do you know where Jacob was born?

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    • #3
      Can you just confirming the wording as Revenue Cutter appears to be an occupation.
      Click here to order your BMD certificates for England and Wales for only £9.25 General Register Office

      Do you have camera? Click here to see if you can help Places of Worship

      Jacob Sudders born in Prussia c.1775 married Alice Pidgeon in 1800 in Gorelston. Do you know where Jacob was born?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Pippa Doll View Post
        Can you just confirming the wording as Revenue Cutter appears to be an occupation.

        Isn't it a ship used by the revenue service?

        Cutter = A sailing*vessel with a single mast set further back than the mast of a sloop

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        • #5
          HMS Cutter and HMS Chance exist but HMS Revenue does not.
          Click here to order your BMD certificates for England and Wales for only £9.25 General Register Office

          Do you have camera? Click here to see if you can help Places of Worship

          Jacob Sudders born in Prussia c.1775 married Alice Pidgeon in 1800 in Gorelston. Do you know where Jacob was born?

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          • #6
            I would have called it HM revenue cutter, Chance, but it could easily say something different on the marriage cert, as the vicar might not have had an interest in the navy! (Even if he lived in Weymouth! lol)

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            • #7
              Can find 2 refs to HMS Chance - one early 1800s and another 1900s, so I suspect there was more than one.
              Jay
              Janet in Yorkshire



              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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              • #8
                This might be significant:

                NAVAL PROMOTIONS, APPOINTMENTS, AND RETIREMENTS
                Hampshire Telegraph and Sussex Chronicle etc (Portsmouth, England), Wednesday, November 2, 1881

                A Guernsey correspondent writes: The Revenue cutter Chance, 60 tons, commanded by Lieut. N. Carter has been appointed tender to the Dasher for the purpose of stopping the trespass of French boats on the fishing grounds off Alderney.


                So, would the crew of the Chance be part of the crew of HMS Dasher? I would think highly likely, so maybe the Chance was tender to HMS Hercules in 1884?

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                • #9
                  Perhaps Hercules was in for repair/refit and the men were quartered on another vessel??

                  Jay
                  Janet in Yorkshire



                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                  • #10
                    Maybe...you seem to be seeing more sense in it than I am...quite frankly it's still all going over my head. What's the best way for me to find this out? Speak to someone who is knowledgable in these things maybe...or even visit Greenwhich Maritime Museum? Not that you guys aren't knowledgable...but someone who knows the history of the Navy inside-out???

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                    • #11
                      HMS Hercules was a 2nd class Battleship launched on 10/2/1868, but from 1879 was mainly involved with the Coastguard, at that time controlled and operated by the Navy. Hercules had a crew of 600 whereas a Revenue Cutter would have had a much smaller crew, probably 50 or 60.
                      As serving members of the Navy, men could sometimes find themselves attached to Coastguard or Revenue vessels on a temporary basis, whilst remaining members of the RN. Because they were paid by the RN, as serving members, they had to be listed with an individual number on the book of a Naval ship, known as the Ship's Book, presumably in this case, HMS Hercules.
                      Chance was most probably a Revenue Cutter, as opposed to a ship, and it may be the same Chance built around 1838 and mentioned in 1848 as a Revenue Cutter.
                      If so, it should properly be HM Revenue Cutter Chance, possibly even HMRC Chance, but not HMS whatever, and that is probably a simple error by the cleric.

                      When large ships, like Hercules, were no longer required for active duties, they became accommodation ships for men awaiting a draft to other ships on the active list, there being no naval barracks at that time. If a man's naval record shows short periods of service on some ships between longer periods on others, it may indicate a probability that he was temporarily posted to an accommodation ship. If so, the record will also show his ship's book number for the time on that ship, which might be for any period from a week or less, to a few months.

                      merleyone

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                      • #12
                        Hi Merleyone. Than for that. Waht is confusing me though is the fac his marraige cert which states he was on the Revenue Cutter Chance contradicts the military record which says he was on the Hercules. Other than that everything else seems to fit, age, name, place of birth ect.

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                        • #13
                          Every certificate or census record is a snapshot in time, so he could have moved between ships and back again.
                          Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                          • #14
                            BendyCowgirl,

                            if his service record shows him to be a member of the ship's company of HMS Hercules from 14/2/1882 until 11/11/1884, then so he was, BUT during that time he might have been seconded temporarily to the Chance for a host of reasons and that period of secondment may not have been very long. He and others may have been there for a specific purpose but whether he served on the Chance or not, he clearly remained on the books of the Hercules.

                            In more recent times, WW1 and WW2, men were often posted to ships like HMS Vivid and HMS Victory at Devonport and Portsmouth respectively. Those ships were, in fact, shore bases which, nevertheless, operated some small vessels engaged in duties such as Boom defence, Harbour duties, minesweeping etc and the crews of those vessels came from Vivid or Victory. Thus the men who crewed those vessels, often commandeered trawlers and the like, were always members of the ship's company of Vivid or Victory, but might well have preferred to consider themselves as crew members of the smaller vessel, however short the time they actually sailed on them.

                            Your man was, no doubt, serving on board the Chance when he married and told the vicar so, but remained a member of the ship's company of the Hercules while so serving.
                            If he had not married during this period, you would never have known he served for a while on a Revenue Cutter!

                            merleyone

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                            • #15
                              Thanks Merleyone,

                              that seems to make sense. what am wondring now though is how could I find out for sure that this is the right guy and how can I decipher the information on the record. Everything else has been 100% until now.

                              Thanks all again very much.

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                              • #16
                                Here is J W Gardiner in 1881. The navy have given him a few extra years compared with his navy record! He's recorded as 30 and on HMS Druid as per the navy record.

                                RG11; Piece: 5633; Folio: 94; Page: 5

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                                • #17
                                  What is that reference Merry?

                                  cheers

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                                  • #18
                                    It's the 1881 census ref.

                                    If you don't have Ancestry, then use family search:

                                    FamilySearch.org - Search

                                    click on census

                                    Enter John Gardiner b 1851. You should get 29 UK results and he is number 27.


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                                    • #19
                                      I'm not sure that's him if it's 1851 birth...according to calculator and 1901 census he was born approx 1855 which, if the military record is his, would tie in with the birthdate on the military record...or am I missing something?
                                      Last edited by BendyCowgirl; 26-01-09, 16:47.

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                                      • #20
                                        What ship is your man shown on in 1881 from his service record?

                                        merleyone

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