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Crafty Sue
24-01-09, 12:28
I hope this is not too muddled :o ...

How likely is it that grandparents lied on their granddaughters death cert by putting their own names as the parents?

This is what I have:
Ivy Lillian birth cert Dec 1901 - mother Lily
Ivy Lillian death cert 1918 - occupation, laundress, daughter of William dec'd, informatant Emily, mother

1911 census: I have an Ivy Lillian with her grandmother Emily living in Bath. (Emily's dec'd husband was William)

Why I think they lied is because I also have another set of birth & death certs for another grandchild of Emily & William:

William Henry birth cert June 1904 - mother Lillian
William Henry death cert Dec 1907 - aged 3 yrs 6 months, mother Alicia Jane

I believe that Alicia was the mother of both Ivy & William Henry, do you think I have this right?

Thanks for reading, all opinions welcome.

Jessbowbag
24-01-09, 12:36
How old would Alicia have been when Ivy was born? (and why would she had called herself Lily????)

What is the Surname please?

Crafty Sue
24-01-09, 12:44
Thanks for your reply Jess.

I didn't put the surname in as I was worried that other members of our family may pick this up on Google. But I suppose I'd already put enough information for them to work out who I'm talking about.

Anyway, the surname is Pannell and Alicia would have been 17yrs old on Ivy's birth (Alicia born 1884). Alicia is my grandmother. I have an old book with the name Lillian Pannell written inside and was told this was my grandmothers.

Forgot to add: All the people I have named are deceased

Jessbowbag
24-01-09, 13:02
So you think Alica Jane & Lillian were one and the same ( but sometimes Lily?)

[[Ivy Lillian 1902 not 1901?]]

Jessbowbag
24-01-09, 13:08
Side comment:

Alice christening on IGI- you prob have that.

My dad was born & christened in the same place, BTW

Little Nell
24-01-09, 13:21
I'm not sure you will get an exact answer. How likely? 34%? 87%?
It depends I suppose on whether they had lied about her parentage earlier. Who is the informant on the cert?

Of course, people could - and did - lie, especially about things that you aren't asked to produce evidence for. On a death, you have to produce a cert from the doctor stating cause of death, but you don't have to prove who the parents were or who you are.

And sometimes people just made a mistake and gave the wrong name(s).

A death cert for a child only gives the father's name, anyway, doesn't it?

Jessbowbag
24-01-09, 13:25
A death cert for a child only gives the father's name, anyway, doesn't it?

surely it gives the name of the informant, along with their relationship - if any- to the person?

usually father, but equally likely to be mother I guess

Little Nell
24-01-09, 14:23
That's why I asked who the informant was - it needn't necessarily be a parent, but if its someone saying they are mother/father and you think they aren't, that implies a lie.

Crafty Sue
24-01-09, 14:53
Sorry for not replying sooner Nell & Jess, thanks for your comments.

My theory is that my grandmother Alicia (aka Lily/Lillian) had daughter Ivy Lillian Dec 1901 & son William Henry June 1904, both born Redhill, Surrey. William died 1907, Redhill.

Sometime before 1911 Alicia, along with her widowed mother, Emily moved to Bath. 1911 census shows Alicia in service in Bath (not living at home) & Emily with granddaughter Ivy also in Bath.

Alicia marries my grandfather 1916 in Bath. Alicia & new hubby go to live in Wiltshire, where my grandfather came from. this is why I'm thinking that Alicia's mother lied on Ivy's death cert. Ivy died after Alicia married and was kept secret from my grandfather.

Hope that makes some sense.

Crafty Sue
24-01-09, 14:59
Sorry, don't think I answered your questions.

The informant on Ivy's death cert is Emily Pannell, mother. Present at death.
In the occupation column it says: spinster, laundry maid (not domestic) daughter of William Pannell dec'd

The informant on William Henry's death cert says Percy Morrison, coronor for Surrey, inquest held Dec 1907. - I have tried to find a report on the inquest but had no luck. In the occupation column of the death cert it says: son of Alicia Jane Pannell a singlewoman and domestic servant, daughter of the late William Henry Pannell

Jammy Dodger
24-01-09, 15:50
I think your answer is there in your last two postings

William died before his mother's marriage, therefore Emily's name was given. Ivy Lillian was brought up by her grandmother, probably from before Emily met her prospective husband, naming herself as mother when Ivy died to hide facts from Emily's husband.

Crafty Sue
24-01-09, 16:07
Thanks Jammy. Having had some more time to mull this over (Ivy's death cert came this morning) I think I'm thinking on the right lines, just needed to run it by someone else.

Jessbowbag
24-01-09, 16:40
Yep, She never told her husband to be about Ivy -