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  • Two Baptism Dates

    Any idea why there would be 2 baptism entries for Frances Payne? Do you think it's likely that 2 females were born in Beaulieu with the same name and both with the father called Thomas?

    Parish Records, Winchester. Baptism Jan 15th 1823.
    Parish Records Portsmouth Library: 18 Jan 1824
    Jules

    I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

  • #2
    It could be that the first Frances died and then another baby was given the same name. Or it could be that the date is wrong on one of the entries you have found.
    KiteRunner

    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

    Comment


    • #3
      Hmm hard to know which one is correct. I think I'll leave my options open...
      Jules

      I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

      Comment


      • #4
        Curious that they are the same month, same day but 3 and only one year apart. I suppose you could check for the burial for the first Frances, or check the registers again for other children of Thomas to see if there was more than one.

        Not sure what the relevance is in Winchester and Portsmouth - presumably they are copies of the same register?
        ~ with love from Little Nell~
        Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

        Comment


        • #5
          If this is from the IGI, I would check other names from the same batches to see if there are any other errors or anomalies.

          In theory, if the information comes from the same source in each case, then there should be two entries for each date. I suspect that there is an error on one source - probably the Portsmouth Library one as I think that would not hold actual copies of registers.
          Phoenix - with charred feathers
          Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

          Comment


          • #6
            The IGI has these baps for the children of Thomas and Catherine:

            WILLIAM PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Male Christening: 30 MAR 1806 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            THOMAS PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Male Christening: 24 OCT 1802 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            THOMAS PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Male Christening: 09 AUG 1819 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            CHARLES PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Male Christening: 20 MAY 1810 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            FRANCES PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Female Christening: 18 JAN 1824 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            ANN PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Female Christening: 16 OCT 1814 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            MARY PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Female Christening: 21 FEB 1808 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            MARIA PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Female Christening: 16 MAY 1826 Beaulieu, Hampshire

            JOHN PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
            Gender: Male Christening: 02 APR 1804 Beaulieu, Hampshire



            but they are all submitted!

            Comment


            • #7
              "Parish records" is a bit vague - where did you source this information?

              OC

              Comment


              • #8
                As they are IGI submissions they are hardly worth the time they take to be read. However, I have come across examples in a parish register where a child was baptised twice, once at home and then in church, presumably because they were not expected to live. I have also come across two church baptisms for, I believe, the same child. As the second baptism was much later I assumed they had forgotten.

                Peter

                Comment


                • #9
                  Peter those who take that view are wasting a valuable source.
                  Many IGI submissions were made by very experienced researchers who pride themselves in the depth and accuracy of their work.

                  Yes some submissions are little more than wishful thinking but the same could be said about most transcripts.

                  Take the NBI for instance, transcripts submitted by members of Family History Societies, yet on reading the first page of Bottesford transcripts I found 32 errors. I checked the parish register fiche and found that the NBI sadly wrong.

                  Cheers
                  Guy
                  Guy passed away October 2022

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Guy

                    Surely you agree that the vagueness in these submissions (no church given) makes the information a bit suspect?

                    Certainly worth following up, although without an actual venue this will be difficult - "parish records" covers a multitude of sources.

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was writing about those people who generalise about submitted entries on the IGI.

                      Very often such generalisations have no bearing in fact but are simply someone else’s statements regurgitated.

                      In recent years there have even been a number of books published which have gleaned facts from other books and articles etc. and re-published those “facts” without discovering the truth of the matter.
                      This leads to new genealogists reading a number of books which agree with each other (thereby confirming each other) without realising that the later books are simply repeating what was written in the first book.
                      Cheers
                      Guy
                      Guy passed away October 2022

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        "Parish records" is a bit vague - where did you source this information?

                        OC
                        Parish Records Winchester Record office
                        parish Records Portsmouth library.

                        Or were you asking someone else? I've got a bit lost on this thread
                        Last edited by JulesSmith; 22-01-09, 08:56.
                        Jules

                        I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Merry, thanks for this. Some of the dates tie in with mine, but others I didn't even know about.

                          I think, possibly there was more than one couple called Thomas and Catherine. The Payne's of Beaulieu are just that ' a real pain'. So many Thomas', Janes, Catherines and Frances'. They didn't have much imagination when it came to naming children. It's driving me nuts. I would love to see the original records, but I don't think the Beaulieu estate would allow it (assuming the still have them).



                          Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                          The IGI has these baps for the children of Thomas and Catherine:

                          WILLIAM PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Male Christening: 30 MAR 1806 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          THOMAS PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Male Christening: 24 OCT 1802 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          THOMAS PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Male Christening: 09 AUG 1819 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          CHARLES PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Male Christening: 20 MAY 1810 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          FRANCES PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Female Christening: 18 JAN 1824 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          ANN PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Female Christening: 16 OCT 1814 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          MARY PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Female Christening: 21 FEB 1808 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          MARIA PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Female Christening: 16 MAY 1826 Beaulieu, Hampshire

                          JOHN PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
                          Gender: Male Christening: 02 APR 1804 Beaulieu, Hampshire



                          but they are all submitted!
                          Jules

                          I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JulesSmith View Post
                            Parish Records Winchester Record office
                            parish Records Portsmouth library.

                            Or were you asking someone else? I've got a bit lost on this thread
                            Jules, if you are lost, we are even more so.

                            Hampshire Record Office holds most of the original parish registers for the county. These are usually made available on fiche. So, if you have visited Hampshire Record office in Winchester, you should have seen an image of the original parish registers for Beaulieu, Blessed Virgin Hampshire Archives. Baptisms cover 1653-1992 and there are copies at Hythe Library and Lymington Library for slightly shorter periods.

                            Portsmouth Record Office holds some local records, but these are unlikely to include Beaulieu. If Portsmouth Library holds any records, these are likely to be transcripts of some form.

                            If you look at the original records, then these may well make distinctions between couples of the same name - by address, occupation or phrases like senior & junior which don't usually appear on the IGI.

                            HRO has several references in its catalogue to Paynes in Beaulieu.
                            Phoenix - with charred feathers
                            Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jules

                              I was wondering where you got this information from as you do not quote an actual church where these baptisms took place, suggesting to me that you have not seen original records.

                              Phoenix has explained where you can see them and I really think you have to check the originals.

                              Guy

                              I agree - regurgitated information, if regurgitated often enough, becomes fact, because "everybody says so". And that is the dangerous thing about IGI submissions, which are very often regurgitated "facts" which have not been checked out.

                              As there is never an easy way of knowing which submissions are correct and which aren't, I use a simple rule of thumb - does it give definite dates and venues? If so, it is worth checking. If it says James Bloggs married Mrs Bloggs about 1700, England, then I abandon it.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hmm, I saw the parish records and Winchester RO. So I guess these are the originals. Portsmouth Library also have hampshire PR so I'm guessing from what you've said that I was looking at copies there. I don't remember anything that distinguished parents etc. I will have to go back again and actually take a copy (if possible) I guess so that I can refer back to it. Naively I didn't realise I would rely on the original records so much.. Luckily though I noted the fiche numbers yey!!! Buckler's Hard consists of about 20 dwellings, who'd have thought so much confusion could come from so few houses!
                                Jules

                                I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Occasionally, keen eyed researchers have queried dates I've put on trees. It's very easy to note the wrong year - especially if the vicar hasn't bothered to put it in, or - if you are me - be unable to read my own notes.

                                  If both your references are from your own notes, taken from images of registers, then you have probably miscopied something in the excitement of finding an entry you wanted.

                                  Photocopies can work out very expensive, but they are the best way of ensuring you have captured all the details. It amazes me how much information I didn't bother with when I used to pore over census microfilm. Like lodgers who turned out to relatives etc etc.
                                  Phoenix - with charred feathers
                                  Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I too have probable links with Bucklers Hard.
                                    A Thomas SHEATH, blacksmith married Jane PAYNE and lived there c. 1810+
                                    I have been looking for information about their probable son, Henry, born Beaulieu for over 10 years now.
                                    What is it with these Beaulieu folk? It's not a big place to hide.

                                    There was a book written naming many folk from the village,... but not mine.
                                    The name escapes me, but I bet Merry will know of it.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Gwyn in Kent View Post
                                      I too have probable links with Bucklers Hard.
                                      A Thomas SHEATH, blacksmith married Jane PAYNE and lived there c. 1810+
                                      I have been looking for information about their probable son, Henry, born Beaulieu for over 10 years now.
                                      What is it with these Beaulieu folk? It's not a big place to hide.

                                      There was a book written naming many folk from the village,... but not mine.
                                      The name escapes me, but I bet Merry will know of it.
                                      Ooh now that's interesting. I didn't realise there was a book. Did you find any Paynes in there at all Gwyn?

                                      See you at Winchester RO soon then LOL.
                                      Jules

                                      I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

                                      Comment

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