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  • Charlotte or Harriet?

    I'm trying to sort out a mystery lady in OH's tree who appears with the same husband and children in several censuses but swaps between being Charlotte (born in Tunbridge, Kent) and Harriot (born Hastings, Sussex) and back again.

    The husband is John Lonsdale b. Maidstone about 1823. I can't find his marriage at all. These are the census details:

    1851 - HO107/1508 John and HARRIOT (b.Tunbridge) plus 4 children were living at 10 Princes Street, London; he's a labourer
    1861 - RG9/169 John and CHARLOTTE (b.Hastings)plus 6 children living at 11 Little Wild Street, London; he's a stable man
    1871 - RG10/345 CHARLOTTE(b.Hastings) now a widow is living at 23 Little Wild Street London with 5 children
    1881 - RG11/438 HARRIET (b.Tunbridge) is staying with her daughter Mary who married John Chappell

    In the IGI I can find all the London-born children's baptisms with parents John and Charlotte Lonsdale. There are no children in the right place and time for a John and Harriet Lonsdale. The eldest 3 children were born in Kent and their baptisms don't seem to be on the IGI.

    I have daughter Anne's birth certificate that gives her mother as Charlotte Lonsdale formerly Tonkin.

    Finally I have her death certificate from 1891 where she is Harriet widow of John Henry Lonsdale. The informant is her daughter Anne, under her married name, and described as her daughter.

    So, is it the same person? The thing that confuses me is the way she changes her place of birth to match her name.

    Does anybody have any ideas??
    Last edited by Lindsay; 08-01-09, 21:40.

  • #2
    Hi Lindsay

    I don't have the Ancestry sub anymore, presumably this is a baptism for one of the children?

    Frances Lonsdale, 15 SEP 1850 Holy Trinity Kingsway, Holborn, London

    I did a parent search but that is the only one listed before 1851 that i can find. I can't see a listing at all for Anne
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

    Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
    My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
    My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm confused.
      If you have a death cert. for 1877, then the Harriet in 1881 must be a different person surely?

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, that's right Glen. The youngest 6 children were all baptised at Holy Trnity Kingsway Holborn.

        Frances 1850
        Mary 1852
        Thomas 1853
        James 1858
        Charlotte 1860
        David 1862 (gives his dob as 1812 but I think this is a mis-transcription)

        The older children I can't find any baptisms for are William (b. Tunbridge about 1844), John (born Chatham about 1847) and Ann (born Chatham 25 July 1848).

        Comment


        • #5
          Oops, sorry sorry Gwyn I'm confusing myself!

          She died 1891 - I'll edit the post!

          Comment


          • #6
            Slightly later than the births and Islington but the Dec 1853 marriages on freebmd don't list all the names.

            Re the death, freebmd doesn't have a Harriet transcribed in 1877, there is a Kent event in 1891 aged 77.
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

            Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
            My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
            My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

            Comment


            • #7
              She definitely died in 1891 in Romford at the age of 77 (as Harriet)- OH's GG Grandmother (Ann) registered the death.

              I started looking for a John Lonsdale and Charlotte/Harriot marriage about 1842/3 as the 1st child I've found was born about 1844 but of course there's no guarantee they married then (or at all!). But there's no likely candidates on freeBMD at all.

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you seen this one?

                Marriages Dec 1863

                Dist; St. Giles vol 1b p 664
                Oswold James
                Reed Phillis
                Guest Harriet
                Lonsdale John
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ooh that's interesting! Definitely worth a look! How did I miss that?

                  Mind you, that makes the census entries even more odd...perhaps Harriet and Charlotte had him for alternate decades?

                  I think it's time to send for more certificates!

                  Thanks for the help!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would have a look in the 1871 for James Oswold first of all, if he appears with Phillis as a wife then it makes the entry worth pursuing, if he comes back as hubby to Harriet then back to square one
                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                    Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                    My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                    My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yep, just been off to do that! There is a Phylis Oswald in 1871 (a widow in her sixties who claims to have been born in Lambeth) and it's a fairly unusual name...h'mm. The John/Harriet marriage does look...possible.

                      I'll have to check if there were any more John Lonsdales living in the area, I think.

                      I think I need to sleep on this one. Lots to think about! Thanks again for your help.
                      Last edited by Lindsay; 08-01-09, 22:29.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lindsay View Post
                        Yes, that's right Glen. The youngest 6 children were all baptised at Holy Trnity Kingsway Holborn.

                        Frances 1850
                        Mary 1852
                        Thomas 1853
                        James 1858
                        Charlotte 1860
                        David 1862 (gives his dob as 1812 but I think this is a mis-transcription)

                        The older children I can't find any baptisms for are William (b. Tunbridge about 1844), John (born Chatham about 1847) and Ann (born Chatham 25 July 1848).
                        It's strange when you look at this lot, a couple of things don't seem quite right,

                        Checking the bmd (via freebmd) shows possible births for some of the kids registered in St Giles district, IGI baptism dates are in brackets;

                        Mary Q2 1852 (18 APR 1852)
                        Thomas Q4 1853 (20 NOV 1853)
                        James Q3 1858 (27 JUN 1858)



                        No sign of the others in the bmd though.

                        The marriage i found (maybe not connected but who knows?) is St Giles reg district.


                        Bit of maths now for age of Charlotte/Harriet

                        1891
                        -77
                        ----
                        1814

                        So David bapt 1862 came along when Charlotte/Harriett was well into her forties? whilst not impossible something just doesn't sound right somewhere. John (the hubby) is apparently about 10 years younger than Charlotte/Harriet and it appears they may have married after the birth of the children??
                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/50125734@N06/

                        Joseph Goulson 1701-1780
                        My sledging hammer lies declined, my bellows too have lost their wind
                        My fire's extinct, my forge decay'd, and in the dust my vice is laid

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, some of the children do seem to be missing. The only cert I have is Ann, from Medway - her birth place on the census is always given as Chatham so that fits.

                          Charlotte/Harriet's age does vary:

                          1851 - John 28, her 31
                          1861 John 48 (I think this is 10 years out), her 41
                          1871 - she's 55
                          1881 - she's 63
                          1891 - she's 77 on her death cert.

                          So her dob could be 1814-1820, making her between 42 and 48 when David was born. I think that's pretty much in line with the age a lot of women had their last child.

                          I'm pretty sure from freeBMD that John died 1865.

                          I'm off to Ancestry now to trawl through the censuses (again!)

                          Comment

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