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The plot thickens...

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  • The plot thickens...

    You may have come across my previous posts, but if not, I've been trying to find a connection between my Jones family and Matthias Prime Lucas Lord Mayor of London. Up until now I've drawn a blank but after boredom and despair I now have revelation. Here's the story so far.

    Thomas Foley Jones married Maria Frances Collins (I received the cert last week). In 1901 Thomas W Collins (a lighterman) was living with them. On the marriage cert, the father is Thomas as well. I eventually found the Collins family on the censuses altough Maria was Mary on the only one she appeared on with them. The mother was Clara. I traced the Collins family back but found them to be Irish so no connection to Matthias there.

    Looking on FreeBMD I found Thomas and Clara's marriage her surname was Shoult. I found the family on the censuses under the various names of Shoult, Should, Shott and Sholt. It's the same on the IGI.

    Clara's parents were George and Hannah on the censuses. On a parent search on the IGI I found one of the kids was Joseph MATTHIAS Shoult - interesting!!. Then finally on FreeBMD in 1838 George Sholt married, drum roll please, Hannah Maria LUCAS!!!

    Hannah was born in Rotherhithe and according to the censuses in either 1816/1817/1818 as her age changes through the years. On the IGI a Hannah Maria Lucas was born in Rotherhithe on 12/01/1816 to a Joseph and Ann.

    Now this is still not back to Matthias as he was born in 1761. As far as I can tell he had only daughters so the Lucas name should have died with him. However, two of his son-in-laws asked the King/Queen, whoever to have the Lucas name be put in front of their own (this was on the Gales DB). Also he may have had siblings.

    I can prove Hannah's parentage by getting the Marriage cert but I'm pretty sure it's Joseph. Also The Shoults were all Lightermen and Matthias' family were also so I think Joseph would be a Lighterman too.

    Now for the questions.

    How can I find Joseph, his birth, marriage, parents, anything now as I'm into pre 1837?

    Can anyone find him on the censuses?

    Can anyone point me in the right direction?

    I'll provide names and dates but really looking in the IGI for Hannah Maria Lucas in 1816 is the only thing necessary I think.
    Hail Spode!

  • #2
    Have you traced the descendants of Matthias Prime Lucas? His will's on the National Archives site, which may be helpful:

    Online Document PROB 11/2071
    Will of Matthias Prime Lucas Wateringbury , Kent . Will of Matthias Prime Lucas Wateringbury , Kent Date: 1848.
    Quick search

    Comment


    • #3
      There is a Joseph Lucas shown on the Waterman Binding Index.
      The date of binding (the start of the apprenticeship) is shown as 18 Dec 1794 - and they were generally 14 years of age at that time so his year of birth would have been c1780. His parish is given as Rotherhithe.
      Elaine







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      • #4
        Guybrush

        Normally when a family applies to the Monarch for permission to use a surname, it means there are no male heirs to the surname. It is usually sons-in-law, who apply on behalf of their wives.

        I have this happen several times in my tree. They are always armorial families.

        So your thoughts that there were no legitimate male heirs is probably correct.

        OC

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        • #5
          That binding sounds promising thanks!

          I have plotted the descendants of Matthias, well all the ones I've found using announcements on the Gale dbs and other sources. I think I have all of them.

          Here's the tree

          ÂÂ*Descendants of Matthias Prime Lucas - Family Tree for Lucas, Wimble, Rennie, Lancaster, Shepherd and 16 other surnames.

          I think Joseph may have been related to Matthias but not descended from him. Maybe a nephew.
          Last edited by guybrush; 07-01-09, 14:00.
          Hail Spode!

          Comment


          • #6
            I would start looking for wills if I were you.
            KiteRunner

            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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            • #7
              In about 1950 a cousin of mine researched our family tree and found that Matthias Prime Lucas had a son Leonard Charles Lucas b 1796. So far I have been unable to confirm this by research on the net.
              A summary of this research is as follows:
              John and Mary Lucas. 7 Children, but Josiah b. 18.8.1725, seems to be the line.
              Josiah Lucas m. Elizabeth Dunn 8.5.1761 7 Children, Matthias Prime Lucas b. 1.11.1761
              Matthias Married Mary Known as Polly. 6 children. Leonard Charles Lucas b. 1796 d.1826 m. Lucy Ann Bridgeman in 1821. She married again after Leonard died in 1833 to Caleb Howard.(There is a photo of these two!)
              Leonard and Lucy Ann Lucas had 4 Children, and 2 died as babies. One named Joseph went to Australia was married with 2 children, and during a gold find all his family and 2 friends were killed by outlaws.......leaving just John Valentine Lucas. B. 14 Feb 1826., d. 10 June 1866. married Anna Maria Mackerell b.12.6.1849,.d.24.8.1895. I think they had 6 children, but the 2nd was Leonard John Lucas b.8.12.1850, d.3.6.1934. Buried in Highweek Devon. His sister Sarah Ann married a Walter West, and their daughter was Katie West, who was our Dads cousin, or maybe Auntie is more the correct thing.(David said it was his cousin.) Now, Leonard John married Barbara Crowdy(christened 25.10.1857) and they were married 22.11 1880. They had 6 children, including Lucy ann, Isabel Olive and Phebe Abigail
              So it seems the direct line is....John and Mary,
              Josiah and Elizabeth,
              Matthias and Polly,
              Leonard and Lucy Ann.....I have her bible
              John Valentine and Anna Maria,
              Leonard John married Barbara,
              Lucy Ann married Ernest George Garrett
              Laurie Edward Garrett married Doris Jackson
              I am the son of Laurie and Doris. I hope the above info makes sense and will help with your research. I would be interested to hear if you are able to find any reference to Leonard Charles Lucas b 1796

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi... I can help you with your research re Collins family and Matthias Prime Lucas, possibly including a manuscript that is currently in Australia. I sincerely hope that you are still on this forum. I think my information will be of great interest to you...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DonnaPicton View Post
                  Hi... I can help you with your research re Collins family and Matthias Prime Lucas, possibly including a manuscript that is currently in Australia. I sincerely hope that you are still on this forum. I think my information will be of great interest to you...
                  Hopefully Guy will see this and reply to you Donna, and welcome to the forum :smilee:
                  Julie
                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                  .......I find dead people

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Julie... I sincerely hope he does, as Matthias Prime Lucas has been a big part of our family. I am eager for Guy to contact me as my Grandmother holds all the information. She is now 91 and not in the best of health, so ultimately, time is of the essence.

                    Regards,

                    Donna.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why not send a PM to Guy as that will be sent to his email address and more likely to be seen.
                      Margaret

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                      • #12
                        Hi,ive just read your previous messages,now i have had same problem,regarding Joseph Mathias Shoults,having just found his marriage,then on the 1881 census,hes back with parents and stated as unmarried--ive known this happen before,where someone just disapears for a while,as did Jessie,maybe divorced or died,i can supply you with my family tree,if you want to look at it----my family,the HOUGH family married into Shoults family,Dave.

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                        • #13
                          I have Joseph Mathias Shoults baptism certificate for 8/3/1846,he married Jessie Martha Hay/Hoy on 1/4/1866,Dave

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello Dave,

                            it might be an idea to send Guy a PM [private message] via this forum, to do this, click on his name on the left hand side, you will get a drop down box in there, there is an option to 'send private message' click on that, and then you can initiate contact with him.

                            Welcome to the forum!
                            Julie
                            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                            .......I find dead people

                            Comment

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