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Opinions on new "evidence" please

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  • Opinions on new "evidence" please

    Charles Hadrill married Mary Ann Green, of full age, in Camberwell in 1876. Her father was said to be Edwin Green, plumber. (Charles' father was also incorrectly named as Charles, instead of William)

    From census –
    1871 (probably) age 20 born Middlesex Turnham Green
    1881 age 30 born Hammersmith
    1891 age 39 born London Turnham Green
    1901 age 49 born London Turnham Green
    1911 age 60 born London Chiswick

    I have never been able to find an Edwin Green, plumber, with or without a daughter Mary Ann.

    Turnham Green comes into the Chiswick area and the registration district of Brentford. Looking at the images of Brentford births for the period 1849 to 1853, there were only two Mary Ann Green births registered. On the first cert the father was George Green, a labourer, on the second Edward Green, a painter. The date of birth was 14th September, 1850. Address 7 Castle Place Turnham Green

    I have been able to trace the Castle Place Greens through the census. The fifth child, Eliza, was born in 1856 and Edward was dead before 1861. An Eliza Green was a witness to Mary Ann’s marriage.

    I splashed out on the transcription of Charles and Mary Ann’s 1911 census entry –
    Mary Ann Hadrill age 60. In the birthplace column, Charles had written 15 Sept Wife, then crossed this through and put London Chiswick. For himself, he had written 21 Decm then crossed this through and put Langley Burrell, Wiltshire. Unfortunately, no birth registration has been found for Charles, only a baptism, but it would seem to me that his initial incorrect entries in 1911 were intended to be their dates of birth.

    As 15th Sept is only one day out from the birth of Mary Ann Green of 7 Castle Place, would you say that the odds against that family being “mine” are now negligible and that I can finally claim her parents for my great great grandparents?

    Update - Sorry, I have just learned that I am on chauffeuring duty, so will have to go and attempt to clear what looks like the half inch of ice from my car windows and will then be away from the PC for some time
    Last edited by Just Gillian; 04-01-09, 09:25.
    Gillian
    User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

  • #2
    I would say extremely likely.

    The other way to look at it is, if this isn't your Mary Ann Green, then what happened to Edward Green's daughter?

    You might find Plumber being mentioned on marriage certs for Mary's siblings.

    Do you have the marriage cert for Edward and Sarah?

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh, now this is odd! I also have an Edward/Edwin Green in my tree (not the same man as yours) who is either a housepainter or a plumber, depending on who he is talking to.

      Someone on here said that plumbling and housepainting would have been allied trades in the 1800s, when plumbing wasn't as complicated as it is now.

      OC

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Merry.

        The 1871 Mary Ann Green I mentioned above was a servant in Lambeth, Surrey. The Castle Place, Chiswick Mary Ann Green was not with her family in 1871.

        There are loads of Mary Ann Green marriages in Middlesex between 1871 and 1881, three of them in Brentford, and loads in Surrey and sending even just for all the most likely is beyond my budget.

        Mary Ann's two sisters did not marry, although one had a son named Green in 1884 and claimed a marriage of two years on the 1911. I downloaded that transcription with the other half of my credits in the hope she had signed the form and I could compare the signature with the Eliza Green on Mary Ann's marriage cert. Unfortunately her son had signed it :( I have not been able to identify a marriage for either of her brothers as Charles and Henry Green are too common in the London area.

        Similarly, I can't identify Edward Green's death because there are too many of them.

        I have the marriage for Edward and Sarah (no father for Edward!) and he is a painter on that too.

        OC - when I first started looking for Edwin the plumber, I was very surprised to find it listed as an occupation in its own right by as early as 1851.
        Gillian
        User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

        Comment


        • #5
          A gg grandfather of mine was shown as a plumber on one of his sons birth certificates in 1846 and his eldest son was a house painter on the 1851 census so quite possibly the trades were linked.
          Robert

          Comment


          • #6
            I should think a plumber originally meant someone who worked with lead. Might be worth researching when it was first used to mean someone who made or installed lead piping.

            Comment


            • #7
              This was in the Big Book of Genealogy in the Wiki:

              Plumber Applied sheet lead for roofing, usually in sheets. Placed lead for stained glass windows.
              Click here to order your BMD certificates for England and Wales for only £9.25 General Register Office

              Do you have camera? Click here to see if you can help Places of Worship

              Jacob Sudders born in Prussia c.1775 married Alice Pidgeon in 1800 in Gorelston. Do you know where Jacob was born?

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Robert, Mary and Pippa.

                I'll go and have another look for Edwin/Edward in the census, armed with this new explanation of what type of work plumbing actually was.
                Gillian
                User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

                Comment


                • #9
                  Similarly, I can't identify Edward Green's death because there are too many of them.
                  Wouldn't this one be the most likely?


                  Deaths Mar 1861
                  Green Edward Brentford 3a 36

                  There's an Edward James in 1860, but it looks likely he was born in 1859.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My gt grandfather was a painter, plumber and glazier, journeyman. So the trades were allied and apprenticeships served.
                    Gwynne

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There's endless possibilities for lead poisoning. Lead sheet and solder; lead in the paint; leaded-light windows and possibly something nasty in the putty as well.
                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        *stares at UJ*

                        Did I miss something? Who poisoned whom?

                        OC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Gwynne's great-grandfather's list of occupations. If he had any sense he'd live off Cornish pasties and throw the ends away.
                          Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                            Wouldn't this one be the most likely?


                            Deaths Mar 1861
                            Green Edward Brentford 3a 36

                            There's an Edward James in 1860, but it looks likely he was born in 1859.

                            You're right Merry - thank you! I hadn't looked at the Edward Green deaths since looking at the 1911 and think I must have been remembering the total Middlesex ones. :o I'll send for that one and perhaps Eliza's birth just to see if there is a different occupation given.

                            Thanks Gwynne - hearing that painting and plumbing were allied trades adds weight to the likelihood that Edwin plumber and Edward painter are one and the same.

                            Uncle John - I'll be interested to see if it proves to be lead poisoning.

                            I haven't had any luck with Edward in 1841 but he was a widower in 1846 when he married Sarah, so, if I can find his first marriage (there's a possible in Brentford in 1837), it may give an alternative occupation too.
                            Gillian
                            User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Just Gillian View Post
                              Uncle John - I'll be interested to see if it proves to be lead poisoning.
                              I'd be gobsmacked. It was a complete non-sequitur. :D:D
                              Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                UJ

                                HAH! I knew it!

                                OC

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Uncle John View Post
                                  I'd be gobsmacked. It was a complete non-sequitur. :D:D
                                  Well, I thought so, but was trying to be polite just in case :D:D
                                  Gillian
                                  User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

                                  Comment

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