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Anyone able to decipher this document?

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  • Anyone able to decipher this document?



    A visit to a cousin recently unearthed this document. It appears to be written on parchment and has an odd seal attached.

    However, I think it may be of relatively recent date, as the cousin informed me that his grandfather was skilled at calligraphy. I am thinking this may have been one of his projects. It looks to be in Latin, and i can make neither head not tail of it.

    I have a photo of the reverse, which also has a few lines



    I would be interested to know what it is all about, if there are any experts who can help

    Beverley




  • #2
    Hi Beverley,

    I can tell you that it is dated 1st March 1609.

    James the first of England was also James the sixth of Scotland, and was in his 36th year as King of Scotland when he became King of England as well. This document is dated in the 42nd year of his reign of Scotland.

    It's difficult to make full sense of it without the left side of the document which is cut off in your picture. Could you possibly take another photo or scan that shows it all? If it could be taken with a more overhead light to eliminate the shadows of the folds it would also be a help. There are several people on here, myself included, who would be happy to have a go at it:D

    Roger

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Roger. I can't take another photo, as the original is in Brisbane and I have returned to Perth. I do however have another photo that shows the other side a bit better....will put it up.

      I was anxious not to hurt the parchment so couldn't get it as flat as I would have liked :o I had a scanner but didn't like to take the chance.



      This is the seal that was appended. It looked to me as though it may have been a plaster casting of an original object...it was quite light .


      Beverley



      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Beverley,

        Thanks for that. I'll get back later - noy easy to decipher in five minutes!

        Roger

        Comment


        • #5
          That's OK Roger...it took us ten years to get across to visit the cousin and ransack his treasures....so a bit longer is hardly going to be a problem

          I have a will I've been trying to read, on and off for about five years (I may add, I really want to know what it is about, because it may prove my theory about the family blacksheep being disinherited) but every time I settle down to tackle it again, the legalese sends me to sleep. I can read the script, mostly...I just can't absorb what it is telling me

          Beverley



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          • #6
            I seem to see the word Crone in the first line...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
              I seem to see the word Crone in the first line...
              lol Mary, that was the only word I could read (or thought I could read) when I looked at this earlier!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Beverley,

                This is my effort. Not absolutely sure of bits of it, but I think the gist is there, and that it is a licence to transfer the property (half of Dorset by the sound of it ) which was held directly from the King from Joseph and Elizabeth Longe to Laurence Meller. It uses the "royal we".


                JAMES by the grace of God King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith etc.,

                TO ALL to whom these present letters have come, greetings.

                KNOW that we, of our special grace, and of fifty shillings and four pence paid to our farmer, have granted by virtue of our letters patent, and given licence and [proof?] to our heirs and successors as much as it is in us, by the present letters do concede and give licence to our beloved Joseph Longe, gentleman, and Elizabeth his wife,

                that two messuages, one water mill, two barns, one stable, two gardens, one orchard, a hundred acres of land, eighty acres of meadow, three hundred acres of pasture, [six?] acres of wood, twenty acres of gorse and heath, and eighty acres of marsh [or moor?] with the appurtenances in Froome Bellett and West Stafford in our county of Dorset, which are held in chief as it is said,

                that they may be able to give and concede, alienate or recover, by fine or recovery in before our justice of the Bench, by any other means whatsoever at the will of the same Joseph and Elizabeth to our beloved Laurence Meller, gentleman,

                TO HAVE and to hold to the same Laurence to his heirs and assigns to the benefit and use of the said Laurence and his heirs and assigns in perpetuity of us and our and our succesors for the services thereunto due.

                And to the same Laurence that he may receive the said messuages, lands, tenements and other premises with the appurtenances from the aforesaid Joseoh and Elizabeth, and hold to himself and his heirs and assigns of us, our heirs and successors [????] aforesaid as if the aforesaid duration is in perpetituity, we give licence and [proof?] to us, our aforesaid heirs and successors we give [??]

                NOT WISHING that the aforesaid Joseph and Elizabeth our their heirs or the aforesaid Laurence and his heirs [?] of the premisses by us or our heirs or successors or by Justices, Escheators or [Bailiffs ?] or other our Officers or [Ministers?], or of our heirs or successors whatsoever [?????]

                [I lost the plot a bit here - I think it was more or less giving Laurence freedom from legal harassment]

                IN TESTIMONY OF WHICH we caused these letters patent to be made

                WITNESS {????] at Westminster the first day of March in the sixth year of our reign of England, France and Ireland and the fortysecond of Scotland.

                Comment


                • #9
                  WOW to Roger in Sussex that's brilliant.

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                  • #10
                    Congratulations, Roger! I haven't made even the slightest effort to read that document, but your translation looks extremely likely - and you achieved it within an afternoon and evening.

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                    • #11
                      Goodness me Roger how did you manage that, well done.

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                      • #12
                        I knew there was a reason I should have learned Latin !!
                        Diane
                        Sydney Australia
                        Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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                        • #13
                          That's brilliant, Roger. I did Latin up to A-level, and I can make a stab at translating a printed text, but I can't read that style of writing at all. How did you learn it?

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                          • #14
                            Wow!

                            What did "Crone" translate into? lol

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                            • #15
                              Brilliant, Roger....have just come back on after a good night's sleep and you've really worked miracles.

                              If that's what it's all about, I'm not surprised John Henry Gould made it a calligraphy exercise, because Frome Bellet was the estate that belonged to his grandfather (until he became a bankrupt). The family has never forgotten about it.

                              Merry...the house I wanted the piccie of in Bournemouth belonged to the same family..they named it (wait for it) Frome Bellet

                              Thank you very much Roger....the cousin who owns the document...a male in direct descent...is going to be very interested when I email him your translation

                              Beverley



                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Thank you all for your kind comments.

                                Beverley, pleased for you that it turned out to have relevance to your family, not just a specimen to study. Is there any chance that you have a connection with Laurence Meller? Probably the state changed hands many times, as the document is almost 400 years old, but you never know...

                                Merry, I think your Crone is actually Scotie, in between Angela and Francis;);)
                                Seriously, this is your local area - does Frome Bellett still exist - I can't find it on the map, so perhaps it is swallowed up in West Stafford?

                                Mary, I was an oddity that actually liked doing Latin at school and later did a week's course with London University's adult education dept at Wye College many years ago, and also spent a lot of time doing local history when I lived at Walton on Thames. Apart from that I picked it up from books, comparing images with transcripts by experts.

                                Has anybody any thoughts about the seal? It looks to me like a female figure astride a horse with a hunting dog, which might be Diana, Roman goddess of hunting. I would have thought this sort of document would have been sealed with something more official, though.

                                EDIT: I have just noticed I left out "the sixth" after James
                                Last edited by Roger in Sussex; 04-01-09, 09:30. Reason: Spotted an omission!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Roger

                                  Surely the document is a modern copy though? The writing is far too neat for an original!

                                  Therefore the seal would be a copy too, or perhaps even a "made up" one? I keep thinking this has the look of something presented for a competition or an examination at high level.

                                  What a lovely thing to have in the family though, Macbev!

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Roger in Sussex View Post
                                    Thank you all for your kind comments.

                                    Beverley, pleased for you that it turned out to have relevance to your family, not just a specimen to study. Is there any chance that you have a connection with Laurence Meller?

                                    I haven't worked out how he fits in. John Gould, the merchant who bought Frome Billet has an entry on a pedigree that reads:

                                    2nd son. Merchant of Dorchester. Bought Frome Billet of the Longs, 1610.
                                    vide Hutchins History of Dorset,'Gould of Upwey & Frome Billet'

                                    Probably the state changed hands many times, as the document is almost 400 years old, but you never know...

                                    Seriously, this is your local area - does Frome Bellett still exist - I can't find it on the map, so perhaps it is swallowed up in West Stafford?

                                    Frome Billet was a village that disappeared during the Black Death...the parish was swallowed up with West Stafford, as you surmise. Unfortunately the Australian Goulds didn't bother to spell out that particular piece of information in their anecdotes, so when I got to Dorchester, I got very hot and bothered in the records office trying to locate the estate.

                                    The house belonged to Goulds from 1610 to 1830 and passed into the hands of the Floyer family when the Rev John Gould went bankrupt.iIt is now called Stafford house.

                                    It seems to have been a nice little huntin', shootin', fishin' estate. I took photos until someone poked their head out of an upstairs window and shouted at me....somehow, it all seemed too complicated to try to explain our connection and they probably wouldn't have believed me anyway..so we went away without having been invited in to inspect the property

                                    Has anybody any thoughts about the seal? It looks to me like a female figure astride a horse with a hunting dog, which might be Diana, Roman goddess of hunting. I would have thought this sort of document would have been sealed with something more official, though.

                                    Whatever the seal implies, Roger, someone seems to have gone to great lengths to copy the original, large chunk missing and all. Perhaps it had nothing to do with the document at all, but was just a piece of family memorabilia John Henry Gould attached to remind him of home

                                    EDIT: I have just noticed I left out "the sixth" after James

                                    I am now in the throes of having another go at Nicholas Gould's will...now he really did own half of Dorset :D It is written in English but the same sort of highly ornate script that is making my eyes cross. I don't dare stop in case I lose the 'feel' for the text that I am acquiring as I plough on. May come back to you experts with words I can't decipher at all. I think it may give me a clue as to why Nicholas's eldest son failed to inherit Frome Bellet

                                    Once again, Roger...many thanks

                                    Beverley



                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      Roger

                                      Surely the document is a modern copy though? The writing is far too neat for an original!

                                      Therefore the seal would be a copy too, or perhaps even a "made up" one? I keep thinking this has the look of something presented for a competition or an examination at high level.

                                      What a lovely thing to have in the family though, Macbev!

                                      OC
                                      I'm sure it is a modern copy, OC. The parchment is so clean I think I mentioned my ideas about document and seal in my original posting. Apparently, John Henry Gould (the one who came to Australia) was very 'into' languages, and calligraphy. I feel sure he was responsible for this.

                                      However, another treasure held by oH's cousin is quite likely original...a seal and a signet ring. I tried to photo them, but with indifferent results. If you didn't know what the crest was meant to be, you would never guess




                                      Stafford House 1863
                                      Last edited by Macbev; 04-01-09, 12:43.

                                      Beverley



                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        What a beautiful property!

                                        In style it resembles Fincham Rectory (Norfolk) which had "1624", inscribed in the attic plaster, amongst a host of wonderful attributes.

                                        Christine

                                        PS, Roger, you're not that odd to have enjoyed Latin. ;) I liked it, too, and have found my ability to have some understanding of it is very useful when I'm singing church music, and when I'm guessing what words from Latin-based languages mean.
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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