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I think I may have uncovered the family secret!

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  • I think I may have uncovered the family secret!

    There is a family secret which no-one in OH's family will disclose. OH's uncle refused point blank to let anyone enquire into the family tree and, as he was the oldest male in the family, his wishes were complied with. After he died over 25 years ago, my father-in-law and brother-in-law started to research. They didn't get very far before my father-in-law became ill and the research was shelved until I took it over about 7 years ago. I have done reasonably well and connected with relatives, one of whom was OH's 2nd cousin that neither she nor he knew about.
    Five years ago we visited a cousin of OH's father, who obviously knew the "secret" but told us 'that it's all best left in the past'.

    I've just downloaded the 1911 census page for my OH's G grandparents in Broadclyst, Devon. Instead of finding them with their 3 youngest children as expected, I found only the elder daughter (I later found the son lodging in Chertsey, Surrey working as a baker) and a niece. We always understood there were 2 daughters - Elizabeth and Dorothy (now both deceased) but Dorothy is listed as niece, with the surname Radcliffe born in Kingston, Surrey. I have found a birth in Kingston in 1902 for Dorothy Ratcliffe, but I can't find a marriage for a male Ratcliffe (or Radcliffe) with a spouse's name that fits for a niece of OH's G grandparents.

    I have a photo of G grandma (top right), her elder daughter Elizabeth (bottom right) and Dorothy (bottom left). The elderly lady is G Grandma's mother-in-law, so presumably only a blood relative of Elizabeth and not of the other two.
    What do you think? Is there a family resemblance between Elizabeth & Dorothy and G Grandma? Or do you think the term "niece" is used loosely on the census?


    Incidently, the cousin who thought the past is best left there was Dorothy's daughter.
    My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

    Sue at Langley Vale

  • #2
    Dorothy, bottom left, looks amazingly like the lady stood right behind her - same long narrow face and pointed chin.

    She does look like the other women too and I would say there is a blood connection between all five women.

    OC

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    • #3
      You know there's a Kingston in Devon, 40 miles up the coast?
      Paul Barton, Special Agent

      Hear my themetune on http://www.turnipnet.com/radio/dickbarton.wav

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      • #4
        Thanks for your thoughts OC, but the lady above Dorothy is definitely no relation to the 3 older other females. She is the bride of G Grandma's stepson.
        Her surname was Dorothy though!

        It never occured to me that Dorothy could be connected to her family.
        My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

        Sue at Langley Vale

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        • #5
          Thanks Paul, yes I did know about Kingston, Devon. On the census her birthplace is definitely shown as Kingston, Surrey.
          My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

          Sue at Langley Vale

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          • #6
            Oooh-err! What an unusual surname!

            If pushed I have to say she looks MOST like the lady stood behind her.

            OC

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            • #7
              Dorothy and Elizabeth are definitely related but as cousins or sisters I don't know. The first time I looked I thought the 3 bottom ladies were all related but on second glance can't decide.

              Do we have a photo of Elizabeth's Dad?

              So how does Dorothy's daughter say they fit into the family? If Dorothy truly is a niece who are her parents?
              Last edited by Kit; 30-12-08, 06:04.
              Kit

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              • #8
                I hope you don't mind Sue but I have done a couple of different versions of the photo to see if it makes them any clearer. The first one looks awful because it accentuates the faults but I thought the features maybe looked a bit clearer. I have to say that my first impression was the same as OC. The young one, bottom left, looks very similar in face shape etc to the lady behind her.



                Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                • #9
                  Kit
                  We always understood that Dorothy's daughter was my Father-in-Law's first cousin and Elizabeth's niece. She has said nothing to deny this. Since I started researching I have found out that G Grandad had 2 sons from his first marriage (OH's grandad Joseph & a brother, William) and that Jack, Elizabeth and (so we thought) Dorothy were from his 2nd marriage. Another fact that wasn't talked about! The eldest son, William, was estranged from OH's part of the family and I only found out about him when I started researching, although Dorothy's daughter told us when we met her 5 years ago she had always had contact with William's children & grandchildren.
                  I have applied for Dorothy's birth certificate to see who her parents were and see how they fit into the family - if they do.
                  I will scan a photo of Elizabeth's father and post it later.

                  Chrissie

                  Thanks for doing the photos. Until OC mentioned it, I hadn't even seen a resemblance between Dorothy and the lady behind her in the photo. She was an only daughter with (I think) 6 brothers and married William (the brother we didn't know about). The photo has always been in the family and shows OH's grandmother & his uncle as a small baby, but we never knew who the bride & groom were until I connected with their grandaughter via Genes and found that she had the same photo! Together we were able to put names to everyone in the photo.
                  Last edited by LangleyValeSue; 30-12-08, 11:17. Reason: Adding a bit!
                  My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

                  Sue at Langley Vale

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                  • #10
                    This is fascinating me Sue. I have a new photo programme that can put people side by side but I don't know how to work it yet
                    I will see if I can put them side by side on here -



                    Oh, I think it's worked.
                    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                    • #11
                      The mouth and chin are virtually identical. It's only the eyes that seem different.
                      Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                      • #12
                        This photo shows William (top left), his father William [also father of Elizabeth &, allegedly, Dorothy] (top right), John, father of William senior, (bottom left) and Emma, [mother of William senior, grandmother to William jnr, Elizabeth and, allegedly, Dorothy] (bottom right) with her g grandson - yet another William - on her lap.



                        Sorry it doesn't appear very clear on here. I can't get at the original to rescan it at the moment.
                        My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

                        Sue at Langley Vale

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                        • #13
                          William top right, has more or less the same shaped face as little Dorothy.

                          Also, in the first picture, who is the young man at the back? He too has a pointed chin and my instinct would be that he is brother to the young lady at the back.

                          OC

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                          • #14
                            The young man at the back in the original photo is one of the bride's brothers.

                            It's all very strange. I suppose I'll just have to wait until Dorothy's BC arrives to see if that answers any questions - although I suspect it will probably just pose more!
                            My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

                            Sue at Langley Vale

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                            • #15
                              Well you've got me hooked. It is mystery.

                              But I do agree the little girl looks like the lady behind her.

                              Am I understanding this right the lady behind the little girl called Dorothy had the surname Dorothy and she married William the oldest Step Son to his father's second wife, the wife that you thought, until family history quest also had two daughters Elizabeth and the Dorothy in question. The same William that was allegedly estranged from the family. But little girl Dorothy's descendant had always maintained contact.

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                              • #16
                                I suppose it is possible that Dorothy was the child of one of the brothers. that would explain the different surname, if the parents weren't married.

                                OC

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                                • #17
                                  I think the little girl actually has a wider face than the lady behind so any resemblance is superficial - ie: that they are the slimmest, so it seems at first glance, the 'most alike' However if you look at the facial features, the one the child resembles most is the oldest lady next to her. I know I look more like my grandmother than my mother, and it's possible for looks to skip a generation or two. Look at the line of the eyebrows and the shape of the nose. The little girl and the grandma also have a similar facial expression - they both look like interesting characters!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Haven't read all through this yet but if you can scan it at a higher resolution it would enlarge better

                                    Ah, don't think you can get to the originals at present, s'cuse mentioning it


                                    Last edited by Rachel Scand; 30-12-08, 13:18.
                                    ~ FOR PHOTO RESTORATIONS PLEASE SCAN AT A RESOLUTION OF 300-600 WITH THE SCALE AT 100% MINIMUM ~ http://restoreandcolour.brainwaving.co.uk

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                                    • #19
                                      What is the age difference between Elizabeth and little Dorothy?

                                      Could it be her child by a brother of the bride with the surname Dorothy? Or am I completely mad.

                                      Because on looking at that large photo in the post above she does look like the woman on the right facing us in the front row.
                                      Last edited by Guest; 30-12-08, 13:29.

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                                      • #20
                                        Yes Maggie, that's about it in a nutshell! LOL

                                        Dorothy's daughter told us she had always been in contact with the 'estranged' William & his family, but I do have my doubts. William's grandaughter could only barely remember her and certainly didn't know where she lived. Odd, as they only lived about 3 miles apart, and the grandaughter (or any of her 1st cousins) didn't remember seeing her at family funerals and the like.

                                        I suppose it is possible that the old lady, Emma, could be Dorothy's grandma. I'm having trouble tracing Emma's family - all I know is that she was probably illegitimate, came from Sandford, near Crediton, Devon and had at least one sister. There may have been another sister and possibly 2 brothers who, along with their mother, were in Crediton Workhouse for a time.

                                        The fact that Dorothy was born in Kingston, Surrey in 1902 also puzzles me as the family are all Devon Ag Labs born & bred and didn't appear to travel around at all. The only Surrey connection I have found is Elizabeth's full brother John (aged 19) lodging & working in a bakery in Walton on Thames in 1911 census.

                                        Elizabeth was 12 in 1911, 4 years older than Dorothy.

                                        The photos were taken in September 1912 when Eliza was 48, Emma was 75, Elizabeth was 13 and Dorothy was 9. Presumably the brother John was still in Walton on Thames then as he doesn't appear in the wedding photos at all, but then neither does OH's grandfather (by then living & working in Herne Hill, London), although his Devonian wife and baby son are there!
                                        Last edited by LangleyValeSue; 30-12-08, 13:57.
                                        My avatar is my Great Grandmother Emma Gumbert

                                        Sue at Langley Vale

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