Masons

[guybrush]

Howdy,

Just a quick question really. On my mother's side of the tree is a very long line of stone masons and quarriers from Dorset. In 1700-1800 I imagine freemasons were more about masonry and less about hobnobbing so could my stone masons also be freemasons?

If so are there online records of masons or a Dorset lodge I could enquire at?

Cheers

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I thought it was only in the middleages that stone masons MIGHT have had some connection with freemasonry?? Might be wrong though. I have quite a few stone masons in my tree

[Little Nell]

The United Grand Lodge of England - Home Page

is website for the Freemasons.

[rkic]

Quarriers in Purbeck had their own guild the "Ancient Order of Purbeck Marblers and Stone Cutters" formed in the Middle Ages. The earliest charter still in existence is from 1551 which limits quarrying in the Isle of Purbeck to freemen .

[Olde Crone Holden]

It might be of more interest to you to look at apprenticeship records for your masons and stone cutters etc.

You could be a stone mason and/or a freemason, but by the 1700s as Merry said, the two did not necessarily go hand in hand.

OC

[Christine in Herts]

... runs off to wade through Bookmarks...

There's a site somewhere with lists of stonemasons - but it might only be Devon.

Christine

[Tilly Mint]

I've just dug out my ancestors 1878 "Copy of indenture" he was a stone mason and built in Lancashire and the "Crown Theatre" and other buildings in Toronto.

One part says.........

And the said********** doth hereby for himself his heirs executors and administrators covenant promise and agree to and with the said *****his executors administrators and assigns that he the said apprentice shall and will serve his said master his secrets kept his lawful commands gladly obey and do hurt to his said master shall not suffer to be done by others when it is in his power to prevent the same.

I wonder if he was a Freemason, or is this just a run of the mill apprentisce ship.

Sorry - there was no punctuation on it.

[guybrush]

Hmm thanks for the info. I've never heard of the Ancient Order of Purbeck Marblers and Stone Cutters. Are there any records anywhere? I know there's a little quarry museum in Langton Matravers I suppose they might know.

OC, are there official government apprenticeship records or would they just be an unofficial thing between employer and apprentice?

[Christine in Herts]

Might be this one:
STONE AND QUARRY MEN OF THE WEST COUNTRY

Update

It is that one, and it does include Dorset names

[Christine in Herts]

Might be worth a look here:
GENUKI: Dorset

There are some useful-looking links... which reminds me that there could be something in our Wiki?

Christine

[rkic]

1651 by laws are at

GENUKI: Four documents related to the Stone Merchants and Marblers of Corfe Castle

[Olde Crone Holden]

Tilly

There is never any punctuation in legal documents, and an apprenticeship indenture is a legal document. Yours sounds like the standard apprenticeship form, and the bit about keeping his Master's secrets etc was standard stuff and again, not NECESSARILY anything to do with Freemasonry. It was just the archaic survival of the wording of such agreements.

Aprrenticeships fell into two categories - Poor Law (or Parish) apprenticeships, which were for ten or fourteen years and paid for by the parish. The other type, between Master and Apprentice, would be privately arranged, but all would have a formal agreement in the form of Indentures which were, and still are, most important documents.

Master and apprentice would have an identical copy of the indentures torn by hand down the middle of the page, so that the "indents" could be accurately matched up against fraud when the apprentice finished his time and was declared competent, at which time the matching of the two halves of the agreement took place.

Either side defaulting on the terms of the indenture was liable to heavy penalties including imprisonment.

Indentures were an important form of identity, which enabled the craftsman to travel at will between parishes without the need for Settlement certificates etc. He was a Free Man!

OC

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Master and apprentice would have an identical copy of the indentures torn by hand down the middle of the page, so that the "indents" could be accurately matched up against fraud when the apprentice finished his time and was declared competent, at which time the matching of the two halves of the agreement took place.

The one I have was cut with a pair of pinking shears - was that just progress? It's dated 1914, from memory.

[Tilly Mint]

Thankyou for that info OC, this document i have seems to mean a lot more to me now, i learn something new everyday ;)

[Penelope]

Redacted

[Olde Crone Holden]

Merry

Progress, I think, and a nod in the direction of tradition.

The need to guard against fraud nowadays takes a more sophisticated plan!

My great grandfather was a Freemason and one time Grand Master. He had no "trade" but was a successful business man, who had deep but simple religious convictions. He did a lot of good by stealth and his own wealth and I am quite sure his membership of the Freemasons was to do with the charitable aspects and brotherly love of that organisation.

No one on his side of the family had ever had an apprenticeship as far as I can tell, apart from his own apprenticeship as a Commercial Clerk!

OC

[Joy Dean]

The one I have was cut with a pair of pinking shears - was that just progress? It's dated 1914, from memory.

My Granddad's was dated about the same year, and very neatly cut

[Uncle John]

Sorry - there was no punctuation on it.

Legal documents never have any punctuation apart from full stops. That way there is no ambiguity.