...And Two Baptisms?

[Penelope]

Redacted

[Olde Crone Holden]

You are right, it IS an odd entry.

Baptism and Christening are hair-splittingly different. Baptism is committing the soul to god, Christening is committing the soul to the body of Christ on earth, that is, the Church of England.

I would expect the entry to be the other way around - baptism first, probably as an emergency and done privately, then the Christening in front of the congregation, admitting the child to the Christian faith and membership of the church.

I would expect the Vicar to be well aware of the subtle nuances and can't believe it is just a clerical error on his part.

Methodists don't Christen, by the way, they baptise, so it isn't a temporary defection to a noncon church!

Sorry, that hasn't helped at all, has it!

OC

[Penelope]

Redacted

[Olde Crone Holden]

Just a thought, perhaps you can tell by the positioning in the register...was the baptism in 1829 and the Christening in 1830?

(A christening following private baptism ought properly to be called "received into the church")

OC

[Penelope]

They were just as written above, OC, the same entry and only once. I quoted the entire thing verbatim. And there's nothing else like it, to compare it with! Should add, if memory serves me right, it was in sequence for the second (Sept) date, not in the rightful place for March but for Sept.

[Crafty Sue]

Just a thought, perhaps you can tell by the positioning in the register...was the baptism in 1829 and the Christening in 1830?

(A christening following private baptism ought properly to be called "received into the church")

OC

Not sure if this helps ..

If the punctuation was altered slightly, that would make OC's theory of a private baptism correct.

ie. "Christened, (March 28th. Baptised) September 30th, 1829. (S. Gooch off. Minister)"

But I'm probably talking a load of nonsense!:o

[Guy]

Parish registers throughout the country on many occasions refer to the christening and the baptism of the same child, care must be taken in these cases to differentiate what might be a private baptism (done in case the child dies before a church baptism) and a baptism in church.
The easiest way is when the register states both were performed on the same day (i.e. Baptised & Christened April 29th)

In most cases a private baptism will be followed a short time later (though sometimes this could be many years) with an entry in the baptism register received into the church.

From my research the Christening ceremony gave the infant a name and the baptism ceremony welcomed the infant into the Church.
Current usage blends both into the one ceremony.

Here is a good example where it is clear when the child was born, baptised and christened, with both the baptism & the christening occurring in CoE churches.

Sarah RAVELL, daughter of William & Hannah RAVELL, Born 18 September 1797, Baptised at Long Bennington 07 October 1997, Christened at Bottesford 12 April 1798.

Cheers
Guy

Ooops yes, the above should read
Sarah RAVELL, daughter of William & Hannah RAVELL, Born 18 September 1797, Baptised at Long Bennington 07 October 1797, Christened at Bottesford 12 April 1798.
Cheers
Guy

[Penelope]

Redacted

[Olde Crone Holden]

To elaborate on Guy's post above - anyone can baptise,(no faith of any kind needed) but only a Minister of God can christen. (Anglican and Roman Catholic).

Slightly off topic - my late grandfather was an Officer in WW1, and his service papers state that he "gave absolution from his sins to a dying man of the Roman Catholic faith".

I have no idea whether the RC church recognised this absolution, as my grandfather was a very strong non conformist and could not have known the correct liturgical words, I'm sure, but I sincerely hope that God recognised his intent, even if the RC church didn't.

OC

[Harrys mum]

Just as an aside and further to OC's comment.

When we were very young, we were taught by the nuns that only children baptised would go to heaven if they died. The others would go to Limbo.

So, as good little RC kids, we'd line up all our protestant friends and baptise them just in case. We were so good at it......lol

I can still remember sprinkling water over their heads while saying..."I baptise you, (name), in the name of the Father.....etc"

If the friends didn't have a saint's name, we'd even change their names for them.

[Penelope]

Am pretty sure that's verbatim - including punctuation but will double check. This vicar has unusually neat handwriting so it should be straightforward! If it is accurate... it really doesn't make sense, does it!

[Pippa Doll]

Sarah RAVELL, daughter of William & Hannah RAVELL, Born 18 September 1797, Baptised at Long Bennington 07 October 1997, Christened at Bottesford 12 April 1798.

Cheers
Guy

I had to do a double take then! I know its only a typo;)

[fisher]

Penelope
I have William Fishers in my family history. Where are yours from? and their years of birth?

[Penelope]

Redacted

[Janet]

Libby,

I hope the Bush Telegraph has reached you that Limbo died many years ago. Not sure whether he was baptised!!:D

Janet

[Harrys mum]

Yes, Janet, I heard that many years ago, although the fellow we have as head out here now, would like you to believe it's still alive and well.

[Peter Evans]

This is from the Swansea Anglican Evangelical website:

Q. What is the difference between baptism and christening?
A. None, they are just different words for the same thing although christening, in practice, is used to differentiate infant from adult baptism which is sometimes by full imersion (sic).

I suspect the different terms used in the PR may merely be an example of the "elegant variation" we so prize in English style.

Peter

[Phoenix]

Victorians were very well aware of the differences between christening and baptism, even if the Swansea Anglican Evangelicals (and the odd C of E cleric) are not. Omitting the christening and just having the baptism was regarded by some of the middle classes as suggesting that you had something to hide.
There is the same subtle distinction between wedding & marriage or funeral & burial.

Like everyone else, I am baffled by the order of the ceremonies.

[Penelope]

Redacted

[Harrys mum]

In the RC church, we do not have Christenings at all, only Baptisms, although people just call them christenings.

There is only ever a Baptism Certificate, never a Christening Certificate.

Could be different elsewhere.