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Why is a marriage listed in 2 successive qtrs?

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  • Why is a marriage listed in 2 successive qtrs?

    My gggrandparents' marriage is listed three times.
    In the June quarter of 1860 Elizabeth Wormald Champ married William Tout in the Fareham district of Hampshire.

    In the next quarter the marriage is listed again - twice (because there was uncertainty whether the name was Wormal or Normal?). I have a copy of the marriage certificate and the wedding took place on 2nd August. Can anyone suggest a reason for this?

    This family is driving me round the bend....(not far to go, my husband would say!) - they keep using second names without the first (William Tout was really John William) and show complete disregard for the truth when completing the census. Elizabeth's mother's age put her birth year any where from 1807 to 1819!.....and Elizabeth said her father was William when her birth certificate said it was Frederick!!!

  • #2
    Shirley

    I'd imagine it was a mistake by the local Registrar/GRO, in that the August marriage got INDEXED twice, perhaps due to a late return by the local RO.

    The third indexing probably reflects the confusion over the name, as you say.

    An application for any one of these three indexings will almost certainly result in only one certificate.

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      Did they actually marry in Fareham?
      I don't see how an August marriage could be logged in June quarter, ie.'before' the event.....?
      Maybe there was some irregularity in the ceremony and it had to be performed again?

      Comment


      • #4
        I have just looked on FreeBMD and there is no view image icon next to the June entry.
        Last edited by Granny Lynne; 01-12-08, 22:26.
        Lynne

        Searching for Ford, Duffy, (Manchester and Ireland) Cree (Manchester, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire), Owen (Manchester), Humphreys (Manchester and Ireland), Egerton (Manchester and Cheshire), Cresswell (Manchester).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gwyn in Kent View Post
          I don't see how an August marriage could be logged in June quarter, ie.'before' the event.....?
          Maybe there was some irregularity in the ceremony and it had to be performed again?
          Yes, I was thinking on the same lines.

          This appears to be her birth, so she would only have been 17:

          Births Mar 1843 (>99%)
          Champ Elizabeth Worm[a_]ld Portsea I. 7 143

          Maybe her parents withheld their consent the first time? Or the ceremony was performed by an unauthorised dissenting Minister?

          I've had a look at the image for the June quarter, to see if any notes had been added, but there's nothing.

          - Ancestry.co.uk

          Comment


          • #6
            The second time, in the 3rd quarter, the marriage is actually indexed twice, as Wormal and Normal; it isn't just that FreeBMD couldn't read it.

            - Ancestry.co.uk

            Comment


            • #7
              So there is an image after all. Why is there no icon on FreeBMD then???
              Lynne

              Searching for Ford, Duffy, (Manchester and Ireland) Cree (Manchester, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire), Owen (Manchester), Humphreys (Manchester and Ireland), Egerton (Manchester and Cheshire), Cresswell (Manchester).

              Comment


              • #8
                IGI has the marriage happening 02 Aug 1860, husband age 21, bride 20 at Widley, Hants, batch # M062161
                ~ with love from Little Nell~
                Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                • #9
                  Yes I noticed that too Mary - strange one!!
                  Lynne

                  Searching for Ford, Duffy, (Manchester and Ireland) Cree (Manchester, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire), Owen (Manchester), Humphreys (Manchester and Ireland), Egerton (Manchester and Cheshire), Cresswell (Manchester).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I told you they were an awkward family! Elizabeth's father had died 11 years before and her mother had remarried (her third husband!). I cannot remember which reference I used to obtain the certificate but the fact that Elizabeth's age was wrong didn't throw me as William was also under age - born March 1841!!!!
                    I will take a look at the parish registers of Widley next time I am in Winchester. The registers exist but the church doesn't.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Was William in the army? Because sometimes an army couple would marry twice if they didn't get permission from the army the first time.
                      KiteRunner

                      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think the error is in the INDEX. No, of course you can't register a marriage before it occurs, but you CAN make a mistake about which quarter it occurred in, if you are compiling an index.

                        I have seen this occasionally, where a marriage occurs right at the end of a quarter - the local Registrar enters it and sends the list off to the GRO. At the end of the next quarter, he can't remember whether he sent that page or not, so copies it again. The GRO don't take any notice of the date, they just index it as appearing in the quarter they received it.

                        The way to find out is to phone the local RO and ask them how many marriages they performed for this couple! I bet the mistake is in the GRO index though.

                        OC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Looking at the September quarter for Fareham, there are a large number of duplicated entries. It may have been that the minister involved was having a very bad time and getting forgetful. It would be interesting to see the original register. I've seen one in Devon where parents' names were transposed, no witnesses noted... and those are only the obvious errors. Goodness knows how many other details were incorrect.
                          Phoenix - with charred feathers
                          Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The strange thing is that Shirley has the certificate dated 2 August. I can see it could have been mistakenly added to the index AFTER that quarter but not before it happened surely???

                            I think the Army possiblity suggested is a good one - or any other reason why the ceremony might happen twice. If it was mine I couldn't resist sending for the earlier one!

                            Anne

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Anne

                              I don't think indexes were compiled immediately the GRO received the returns. You have never been able to get a cert from the GRO in the quarter it was registered until very very recently. I would imagine it took some months to compile indexes before computerisation.

                              However, the soldier marriage is a good idea. Personally, I'd phone the local RO and ask them how many marriages took place - that way it won't cost the price of a second certificate unl;ess two marriages really DID take place.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                Anne

                                I don't think indexes were compiled immediately the GRO received the returns. You have never been able to get a cert from the GRO in the quarter it was registered until very very recently. I would imagine it took some months to compile indexes before computerisation.

                                OC
                                Ah - right - that makes sense if they were compiling a whole year's worth or even more

                                Anne

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  You were supposed to send returns every quarter, but some ministers didn't.

                                  Looking at the reference Nell has given for the IGI, there weren't very many marriages at Widley in 1860. In date order, they are:

                                  Sarah Lee ..............8 April ........GRO June 793
                                  Elizabeth Champ ......2 August............June 794
                                  Elizabeth Champ ......2 August............Sept 721
                                  Harriett Boxal...........23 September.....Sept 721
                                  Phoenix - with charred feathers
                                  Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Thanks for all the comments. William was an engineer in the Dockyard - so no army connection. In the 1861 census his wife is shown as Lydia!!!!

                                    The church at Widley was part of the much larger parish of Wymering - I imagine that there were very few BMDs there in any year.

                                    The building of new churches in the area, and the land taken from the parish to create the new parishes of Waterlooville, Purbrook, Portsdown and Cosham left Widley with very few parishioners. It has also been stated that the old Widley Village was forcibly moved east to its present location during the 1860s so as to "deny the enemy any cover" during the construction of the Palmerston Forts.

                                    I will look up the registers, as I said, when I have the opportunity.

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