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  • twyford update and help

    i have got a little further on josiah twyford's family. i visited grandma, and she lent me a folder on his and his wifes families and descendants. a cousin in1914, went to england on holiday and spoke to josiah's sister and her children about the family. she edited the unsuitable things, and was apparently captured by the germans, and detained. they consiscated most of the notes.
    im not sure i believe the german part, but ah well. in this folder are letters from josiah, from 1840-1867. they are too his mother and sisters. my grandma also has letters from these people. they're great, coz they give family names and addresses.

    point number 1
    so, i have him born in 1824, preston, lancashire. the son of william smith and elizabeth sophia twyford.
    his sister mary is born in 1827.
    ellen is born in 1825. they are all baptised at st john, preston, lancashire. josiah is baptised in 1824, and then again in 1825. why?

    point number 2
    in his letters to his mother, he says when the ship left england. tues the 26th oct, 1841. the josiah smith in cheshire in 1841 census must be him, with uncle hugh twyford. he doesnt say where the ship came from.only that there where 50 passengers. he arrived in port phillip bay, victoria on sat 29th jan 1842.
    where can i find out what ship he was on?

    point number 3
    josiah's familt seem to have moved to cheshire by 1841.
    i cant find william smiths marriage to elizabeth sophia twyford.

    "william smith from scotland, was killed when in manchester, talking to someone in a shop, he stepped back and fell through a trapway into a boat in the canal" supposedly around 1828. how do i find out about this?

    elizabeth married john lindley around 1828, in london goes the info. how can i find this?

    point number 4
    i have mary smith marrying james carr in 1848, altrincham, cheshire. i have them on all census. but mary is missing in 1841. can anyone find her?

    ellen smith married john kelshaw. i cant find this, or them in the census. she is on the 1851 with her mother and stepfather.can anyone trace her? she supposedly died in 1869.

    point number 5
    elizabeth sophia twyford first married william smith. secondly, she married john lindley. i cant find any records for either marriage.
    she died in 1855, altrincham, cheshire.
    she is on the 1851 census- ho107, piece 2162, folio 405, page 6.
    can anyone locate her under lindley in 1841?

    i found this in 1841-wirral, cheshire. ho107, piece 128, book 2.
    william smith, elizabeth, william, haue (hugh) and elizabeth. is this elizabeth sophia and william smith? is this family traceable in future census?


    sorry this long, but im lost on these points. if anyone can help on any of the quesyions it would be greatly appreciated.:o

  • #2
    About the baptism
    it's possible the first baptism was done privately and the second was when he was admitted publically to the church.
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

    Comment


    • #3
      To find out about the accident falling into a canal, you'd need to look for local newspaper reports. These will be in the relevant local history centre/county archives.
      ~ with love from Little Nell~
      Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

      Comment


      • #4
        Just an observation but there were no invading German forces in England in WW1 (nor WW2, come to that!)

        "Falling through a trapdoor in a shop". Surely, this should read SHIP, not shop? Unless the shop was astride the canal, I don't see how you could fall into a barge beneath it.

        (Sprry, nitpicking I know. As Nell says, local newspapers will probably carry a report of this).

        Are the two baptisms definitely the same Josiah? Different venues? If it is definitely the same chap, then they were possibly establishing Settlement rights. I have a few instances of this in my tree.

        OC

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        • #5
          The 1824 christening is at Cannon Street Independent Or Congregational, Preston, Lancashire, and the 1825 at Saint John, Preston, Lancashire, so it could be that they switched from being non-conformists to the mainstream C of E church, or it could be that they wanted to keep in with both (perhaps one parent's family was non-conformist and the other traditional). Or it could be that the first Josiah Twyford Smith died and there was a second one named after the first, and they just happened to have switched denominations at the same time.
          KiteRunner

          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

          Comment


          • #6
            nell, how would i find such reports? i googled for drownings, and couldn't find anything, save a william smith drowning in pennslvania, america.

            oc, what are settlement rights? i dont know where the story is from, just that it is typed by typewriter.
            im not sure how she came home, from the story, i would say she travelled through europe, through the suez canal?

            kite, what is the cannon st congregational? i wouldn't know if there was one who died young. in his letter to his mother dated feb 28th 1842,he signs as 'your only son'. which is why i was a little confused when i found the possible smith family in 1841.

            Comment


            • #7
              Congregational church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
              KiteRunner

              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

              Comment


              • #8
                Josiah was baptised at St John, Preston, on the same day as Ellen, so either the first Josiah died and then they had twins Josiah II and Ellen, or it is the first Josiah and they had switched churches since his baptism at the Congregational Church, and the vicar of St John's said the first one wasn't a proper baptism and they should let him do it, or something like that.
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                Comment


                • #9
                  would there be some sort of note or reference with that baptism?
                  ill have to see if the mormons have a place near me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not sure what you mean about a note or reference, but the only way to find out would be to look at it.
                    KiteRunner

                    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't know whether you already have this, but this looks like Josiah's uncle (from the IGI):

                      Hugh Twyford born 25 Mar 1801 baptised 24 Apr 1801, St Ann Manchester, parents Josiah and Mary.

                      There are lots of children of Josiah Twyford and Mary listed on the IGI, including an Elisabeth Sophia christened Sep 1787 St Clement Danes, Westminster.
                      KiteRunner

                      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ooh, and have you seen this (from A2A, held at London Metropolitan Archives)?


                        Mortgage BRA898/77 19th Jan., 1835


                        Contents:
                        1 John Twyford of Bootle, Lancs.;
                        2 Edmund Ward of Prescot, Lancs.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.


                        Mortgage BRA898/78 19th Jan., 1835


                        Contents:
                        1 John Twyford of Bootle;
                        2 Edmund Ward of Prescot, Lancs.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.


                        Mortgage BRA898/79 16th Nov., 1835


                        Contents:
                        1 John Twyford, of Bootle;
                        2 Richard Finlow, Liverpool.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.


                        Mortgage BRA898/80 and 81 23rd April, 1836


                        Contents:
                        1 John Twyford;
                        2 Thos. Trotter and James Trotter, Liverpool, auctioneers.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.
                        Memo. to Stephen Pegler, enclosed


                        Mortgage BRA898/82 5th Sept., 1838


                        Contents:
                        1 John Twyford of Liverpool;
                        2 John Andrew, gent., and John Andrews, victualler, Liverpool.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.
                        Memo. to Stephen Pegler, enclosed


                        Release BRA898/83 20th Dec., 1839


                        Contents:
                        Mary Twyford, Manchester, spi.;
                        John Sutcliff Pixton and Ann his wife, Manchester;
                        Perthenia Twyford of Stratford Lancs., spi.;
                        John Lindley and Elizabeth Sophia his wife, of Altrincham, Chester;
                        Hugh Twyford, Altrincham, Chester;
                        Thos. Twyford the younger, Manchester, Mary T., Ann P., Perthenia T., Elizabeth S.L., Hugh T., Thos. T., Josiah T. deceased and Wm. T. decd. and John T. of Manchester were children of Josiah T., brother of Robert Twyford.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.


                        Release BRA898/84 11th Feb., 1840


                        Contents:
                        John Twyford;
                        Edmund Ward;
                        Dorothy Finlow wid. of Richard F.;
                        Elizabeth Trotter wid. of Thos. T.;
                        James Trotter, Liverpool, auctioneer;
                        Robert Hughes, Liverpool, land agent assignee of Jas. Trotter, bankrupt;
                        John Andrew, and John Andrews.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.


                        Letters and receipts BRA898/85-100 1839-1840


                        Contents:
                        Stephen Pegler, Trustee of Robert Twyford.
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.


                        Letters from Pixton BRA898/101-106 March, 1867-April, 1869


                        Contents:
                        Reversionary share in the estate of the late Robert Twyford, Trinity Row, Islington, watchmaker.
                        KiteRunner

                        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                          ellen smith married john kelshaw. i cant find this, or them in the census. she is on the 1851 with her mother and stepfather.can anyone trace her? she supposedly died in 1869.
                          Was her husband's name definitely John? There is an Ellen Smith / Stephen Ralph Kelshaw marriage at Leigh Register Office / Registrar Attended in 1859.
                          KiteRunner

                          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No, forget that - I've found a Stephen Kelshaw with wife Ellen and it doesn't look like your Ellen.
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                              i found this in 1841-wirral, cheshire. ho107, piece 128, book 2.
                              william smith, elizabeth, william, haue (hugh) and elizabeth. is this elizabeth sophia and william smith? is this family traceable in future census?

                              Since that A2A entry shows that Elizabeth was married to John Lindley by 1839, you can ignore that 1841 family. There must have been loads of William and Elizabeth Smiths!
                              KiteRunner

                              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Oh, and another thing - I seem to remember the address "Washway" from that census entry:

                                Cheshire County Council - Wills Database Online Home

                                If you search the Cheshire Wills Database for the surname Lindley, there is a John Lindley, gentleman of Timperley, Washway, listed for 1863 and you can order the will from that site. Sorry if you already have this!
                                KiteRunner

                                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  wow!! go kite!! i did't know any of that!!

                                  hw wills were interesting, i typed in twyford, and came up with a lot of uncles.

                                  im afraid i dont understand what all the things from the a2a mean. i get there are mortgages, and receipts. but what do all the names of elizabeth sophia's siblings, kids and grandkids mean? i believe her faher was mentioned as well?

                                  i did find the baptism for elizabeth in the igi. there were three kids baptised to josiah and mary in london. the other 11 were baptised in manchester.
                                  josiah twyford married mary rothwell in blackburn 1783. then, same year, moved to london, because at the end of the year is a child baptised. the then moved back around 1790. im still not sure if they are one family. but those documents may help.

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                                  • #18
                                    I'm not sure exactly what all the A2A entries mean, but I thought the important thing was that it gave all the relationships.
                                    KiteRunner

                                    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      it's still muddled, but ive found some marriages, and some links.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        point number 4
                                        i have mary smith marrying james carr in 1848, altrincham, cheshire. i have them on all census. but mary is missing in 1841.
                                        You don't say whether you have the actual cert, but you may be able to obtain a copy of the parish register entry with the info from CheshireBMD , that the marriage took place in Bowdon, St Mary's Church. Unfortunately, unless there's a person who's willing to do look-ups at Cheshire RO (check the Wiki), you'll still have to pay £7 for a certified photocopy since GRO put its oar in!

                                        Christine
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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