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  • Help with finding birth records

    My g-g grandfather, James Barker shows up on the 1901 census as being in the same household as my great grandmother Lydia Barker. It states his occupation as retired engineer and shows his DOB as c1827 in Leeds. (Class: RG13; Piece: 3326; Folio: 111; Page: 18.)
    Tracing him right back, I think I have found him (at least I think it's him) on the 1851 showing as a machine fitter (similar to engineer?) Class: HO107; Piece: 2320; Folio: 1150; Page: 8
    Then I think he appears in 1861 with a different wife and a 4 month old son (my g grandfather Alfred) can anyone read the occupation here? Again lloks like “Fitter…..”
    Class: RG9; Piece: 3384; Folio: 59; Page: 28
    However I’m unconvinced about the 1871 and 1881 entries (RG10/4009 Folio 99 Page 19 and RG11; Piece: 3910; Folio: 124; Page: 15) where he seems to have had a change of profession and become a beer retailer and then landlord. Does this sound plausible?

    Also how can I find his birth cert as c1827 Leeds isn’t that much to go on (and I hadn’t realised how common Barker was in Yorks until recently!!)

    Any ideas greatly appreciated!
    OLD SALIAN

    Researching:
    Barker - Hale, Cheshire/Leeds
    Greatorex - Winster, Derbys
    Rudd - Richard's Castle, Herefordshire
    Oakes - Liverpool
    Ormerod/Stott/Crabtree - Oldham/Rochdale

  • #2
    Well all the dates and places of birth for James, Mary and Alfred from 1861-71 seem to fit. The profession on the 1861 looks to me as 'fitter of flax & ?? machine'.

    I'll have a further look in a mo.
    Hail Spode!

    Comment


    • #3
      Any ideas greatly appreciated!
      I haven't looked at the census records you mention yet, but in order to sort out who James' parents are, you could first find out his father's details from his marriage cert. To do that you should first get the birth cert for your great-grandfather, Alfred, in order to establish his mother's maiden name and therefore be confident you are getting the right marriage cert.

      Comment


      • #4
        Births Dec 1860
        BARKER Alfred Leeds 9b 343

        Alfred's birth?

        Comment


        • #5
          In 1861 your family have Margaret Barker b Pendleton, niece aged 8 living with them.

          I can't find her for definite on the following census, but in 1861 there is a Barker family living in Salford who have some children b at Pendleton too. The head of this house is John Barker aged 36 b Manchester and his occ is Designer to Calico Printer. I think there's a chance this is your Jame's brother (more to investigate!).

          RG9 Piece: 2926; Folio: 41; Page: 8
          Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 24-11-08, 09:02.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think this marriage fits with the 1851 James W Barker

            Marriages Sep 1850
            Barker James Warehouse Leeds 23 457
            Barker James Waterhouse Leeds 23 457
            West Ann Leeds 23 457

            as he is living with the Wests in 1851.

            Then there's this death

            Deaths Mar 1904
            Barker James Waterhouse 77 Chorlton 8c 674

            which fits for age with your chap in 1901, though he's not in the same district.

            I can't see another marriage for James Waterhouse Barker between 1851 and 1861 if both those James you have found are the same man.

            So I'm suspicious that the 1861 and 1851 James may not be the same person. Do you have Alfred and Lydia's marriage cert? What does it say for father of the groom?

            EDIT - having said the above, your James does have the middle initial W on the 1891 census.
            Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 24-11-08, 11:16.

            Comment


            • #7
              Marriages Jun 1896
              BARKER Alfred Chorlton 8c 1340 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
              LOWE John James Chorlton 8c 1340
              Rudd Lydia Maria Chorlton 8c 1340 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
              Wilkinson Ann Chorlton 8c 1340

              You don't seem to have mentioned the 1891 census in your first post.

              Is this him?

              James W Barker aged 64 retired publican b Leeds.

              In the house is his married dau Emma Edlin aged 28 b Leeds and Albert Barker (son) aged 22 b Salford. No sign of Alfred who should be going to marry Lydia Rudd.


              I wonder where Alfred was in 1901?

              Have you got the marriage cert between Alfred Barker and Lydia Rudd, I wonder??
              Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 24-11-08, 11:08.

              Comment


              • #8
                The 1881 census you found Rg11 3910 (James Retailer of Spirits) is the same chap who was a retired publican in 1891. Here he has the daughter who would later become Emma Edlin and also the son Albert.

                No Alfred though.

                I can't see Alfred on this census anywhere.
                Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 24-11-08, 11:06.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The crux of the whole thing should be finding Alfred in 1901 as married but with no wife as she is with her father-in-law but with no husband, but that bit is proving tricky! lol
                  Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 24-11-08, 11:19.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would say the 1871 census you have found for James, Mary and Alfred is the right one (beer retailer). Or rather, it's the same people as the 1861 census!!


                    Who is Mary Richardson (mother). I thought she could be Mo-in-law as she was born same place as James' wife, but I can't see a Richardson/Barker marriage. Maybe Mary R was married more than once though, be she James or Mary's mother.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm having trouble finding Alfred in 1881, 1891 or 1901.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Should it turn out that James is James Waterhouse Barker, then there are a lot more Waterhouse Barker entries on the BMD's and most of those are around Leeds.

                        This seemed possibly significant, esp if your James only remembered his middle name on his first of two marriages and he was given it at death too - maybe he wasn't baptised with the middlename?

                        JAMES BARKER Event(s):
                        Birth:
                        Christening: 09 JUL 1826 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Parents:
                        Father: SAMUEL WATERHOUSE BARKER
                        Mother: MARY
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record

                        There's also a death for a Samuel Waterhouse Barker in 1838.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Wow - well thanks for all the posts (been at work today!)
                          Alfred wasn't on the 1901 census I suspect because he was at sea (he was a captain I believe, I know he got his 2nd mate's ticket in 1875ish according to my deceased father) Family history also goes that the family wealth came from Alfred's seafaring career as in those days, captains could buy into their cargoes...
                          I do have Alfred and Lydia's marriage cert - states father simply as James Barker occ "gentleman"!! no other clue as to profession other than that. I also got the death cert for James Waterhouse Barker thinking it might be my gg grandfather - death notified by A Barker son but I'm still not sure whether James Waterhouse beer retailer is the same as James engineer.
                          I'll try to get Alfred's birth cert and see what that says...
                          Thanks very much
                          OLD SALIAN

                          Researching:
                          Barker - Hale, Cheshire/Leeds
                          Greatorex - Winster, Derbys
                          Rudd - Richard's Castle, Herefordshire
                          Oakes - Liverpool
                          Ormerod/Stott/Crabtree - Oldham/Rochdale

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi again - I think Alfred isn't on 1881/91 and 1901 is because he was at sea
                            OLD SALIAN

                            Researching:
                            Barker - Hale, Cheshire/Leeds
                            Greatorex - Winster, Derbys
                            Rudd - Richard's Castle, Herefordshire
                            Oakes - Liverpool
                            Ormerod/Stott/Crabtree - Oldham/Rochdale

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I wish you'd explained about Alfred earlier!!!!!!!!!

                              Anyway, I think the family from 1861 to 1901 are all the same people because the children follow throught from one to the next.

                              1861

                              James 34 b Leeds
                              Mary 35 b Pendleton
                              Alfred 4 months b Leeds

                              1871

                              James 44 Leeds
                              Mary 45 Pendleton
                              Alfred 10 Leeds
                              Emma 8 Pendleton
                              Walter 6 Pendleton
                              Albert 2 Pendleton

                              1881

                              James 54 Leeds
                              Mary 55 Pendleton
                              Emma 18 Pendleton
                              Walter 16 Pendleton
                              Albert 12 Pendleton

                              1891

                              James 64 Leeds
                              Emma 28 Leeds
                              Albert 22 Salford

                              Thought these birth places are wrong they may have been written by James son-in-law. I can't see an alternative match for Albert or James that can't be eliminated because they are also on the 1901 census.


                              Also you should know there's another James Barker b similar date in Leeds who is on the Scottish census until 1881. He's in Enggland in 1891 and 1901, so def isn't your chap, but the point is, he may have been baptised in Leeds too.

                              Have you checked the address from the death cert back to the 1901 census to see who was living there?
                              Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 24-11-08, 21:08.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I suppose it would be too much to ask for the 1903 death cert to be for 10 Hibbert St, Ardwick, Manchester?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Whoops - sorry....

                                  No - I haven't checked address on the James' death cert back to 1901 - how do you do that? It is 172 Upper Lloyd Street Moss Side Manchester

                                  Is there any way of looking into what ships Alfred might have been on? Did the census returns not cover the guys in the navy/at sea?
                                  OLD SALIAN

                                  Researching:
                                  Barker - Hale, Cheshire/Leeds
                                  Greatorex - Winster, Derbys
                                  Rudd - Richard's Castle, Herefordshire
                                  Oakes - Liverpool
                                  Ormerod/Stott/Crabtree - Oldham/Rochdale

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    P.S. The death cert I have is for James Waterhouse Barker 21/2/1904
                                    OLD SALIAN

                                    Researching:
                                    Barker - Hale, Cheshire/Leeds
                                    Greatorex - Winster, Derbys
                                    Rudd - Richard's Castle, Herefordshire
                                    Oakes - Liverpool
                                    Ormerod/Stott/Crabtree - Oldham/Rochdale

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hmmmm...

                                      172 Upper Lloyd St has some people called Downsby living there in 1901:

                                      RG13; Piece: 3711; Folio: 82; Page: 16.

                                      Of course, everyone could have moved in two or three years!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Is there any way of looking into what ships Alfred might have been on? Did the census returns not cover the guys in the navy/at sea?
                                        It does, but not all merchant ships were covered if they were at sea. I think all RN ships should be included.

                                        Comment

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