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Out of interest, and to clarify my thinking

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  • Out of interest, and to clarify my thinking

    What would convince you that you have the correct ancestor line in the abscence of a marriage certificate to prove parent of the male????

  • #2
    Marriage for his assumed siblings at which he was a witness - if he had a distinctive signature.

    Deaths within his family for which his married sisters were informants.

    Family members living with or close to him after his marriage.

    A will in which his children are mentioned.

    A transfer of property to him on his father's death.

    Children with distictive family names.

    None of these would be conclusive by themselves, but the more of them there were, the greater the probability would be.

    There will of course be instances where two cousins are of a similar age & birthplace and you really cannot disentangle them.
    Phoenix - with charred feathers
    Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

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    • #3
      If you give us details of this ancestor we might be able to furnish other ideas. But of course a father's name, whether on a baptism register, or birth/marriage cert isn't PROOF of paternity!
      ~ with love from Little Nell~
      Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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      • #4
        In an unconventional context...

        I'm pretty convinced that Trevenen Penrose Coode, RN, is father of one of OH's "father unknown" ancestors (Henry Trevenian/Trevian Coode Gould) - but there's no way I can see of proving it with currently available techniques. I'd be more confident (not the same as convinced!) if there were a Will, or some document indicating patronage of some kind.

        I have that name in as a provisional ancestor. It could just be that HTCG's mother wanted to claim the naval officer's paternity for her son, but it wasn't true.

        Christine
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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        • #5
          My only answer here is that you may have to rely on family and what has been passed down to you in the way of photos/addresses/letters/wills etc. I have to say that I have not got my parents' Marriage Cert which cannot be found in Malta!! Now that would make me fall at the first hurdle, particularly as I have only recently found my Grandparents' marriage Certificate! However I do possess many photos, some with names on the back, letters with addresses, many postcards from family and a host of family tales, some of which I have proved correct and some of which I have proved incorrect, and have still managed to get back to the 1500's!! Luck may be on your side or not. I was lucky in that an Aunt gave me the names of 10 of the children born to my Great G Father who she told me was in the army and I have bought all ten Birth Certs when found and that helped me tremendously, so I think it is a question of slowly, slowly gathering up all you possess and proving every point as you go along, so despite my first lack of certs and solid information, I now feel that I have plenty of evidence building up, and am very confident of my facts, but I have been building the blocks for almost 30 years!

          Finding army/navy people can be quite informative, and leads you on to many ideas like marriages, where children may have been born etc. My own family is an army family and I have found so much on the census by just keying a surname and hamlet that they originated from and have found a few in barracks that way. Army details have uncovered marriages abroad, children born and died in Ireland as well as all over the UK and abroad and as army details give exact ages then it is easy to obtain Birth Certs.

          There are so many leads that you can follow but so difficult to write them all up here.

          Janet

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
            If you give us details of this ancestor we might be able to furnish other ideas. But of course a father's name, whether on a baptism register, or birth/marriage cert isn't PROOF of paternity!
            Where to start?? Bit long winded please bear with me.
            My father tried 30 years ago with this family and got stuck. I think I have unravelled it with help from many people on here at odd times over the last couple of years.

            Fact. John Clifton b 15 july 1878 is my GT Grandfather. Only found his birth cert last week after 30+ years of searching. Including by people who required it for his pension when he got to that age. Death 1951.

            Fact. His Father Charles b c 1834 and Jane Griffiths b 1838 New Radnor Wales. Proven on Birth Cert, Marriage cert, and siblings birth certs.

            Cannot find the marriage for Charles and Jane.

            Family Oral history. Has it that they were "gypsies" untrue they were chimney sweeps and travelled a lot, and that John buried a wife and children before he married my Nan's mother TRUE. Proved by my Dad years ago with church records and censuses.

            Problem 1. Charles gives two different places of birth in different censuses Pinner and Biscester. The first appearence of Charles and Jane in Luton is 1871. Cannot find them in 1881, got them after that, children were born Watlington Oxford, Luton Beds, and John was born in Harrow but address was Pinner.

            Problem 2. in 1861 census there were 6 possible Charles Cliftons of the right age narrowed down to two by process of elimination, the following 2 both say born 1834. 1 says born biscester, 1 says Herts town not known. Both working with horses. First one in Winslow Bucks. 2nd one in Cripplegate Middlesex and Married? to an Ellen. Can't find a marriage.
            Following both of these backwards and forwards both on census and other records I think I have proved that the second Charles living Middlesex in 1861 is mine. The first one was in fact b c1839 in Biscester which I have found a birth entry for and married a Mary North which follows through to 1901 census.

            The 2nd Charles b 1834 to the best of my knowledge tracks back to Caddington in Beds he is one of 7 children by his fathers first wife who then remarried and had 10 more children. This Charles is living with Grandparents in 51 with two of his siblings. Some of the 17 children who I have been tracking this week, moved around well. Some stayed close to Caddington.

            I believe I have enough evidence to claim this 2nd Charles b Caddington as mine.

            What do you think???

            Thankyou for your suggestions above which I will follow up when I eventually get time to travel up to Bedfordshire. Please keep them coming as I am still not 100% sure and if I do get a contact from uploading this new info onto the tree I would hate to think I was responsible for it being wrong.

            Comment


            • #7
              It sounds as if you are doing everything you should do, but why do you have Bicester as a possible birthplace if (presumably) the reference is to the second Charles rather than the one who married Mary North?
              Phoenix - with charred feathers
              Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Phoenix,

                My Charles who I think was born Caddington! gives his place of birth on 71 as Biscester, on 91 as Pinner and 1901 as Pinner (mistranscribed as Penner).

                Hence the total confusion about his origins.

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                • #9
                  Both Harrow and Pinner are Middlesex and an address in Pinner would these days be Pinner, Harrow, Middlesex and Pinner is today within the London Borough of Harrow.

                  If they were chimney sweeps then they had their own businesses and you MAY just find their names in the Kellys or other directories for the places you have mentioned. I have found Hawkers in Kellys! Maybe worth a look.

                  Janet
                  Last edited by Janet; 02-11-08, 19:40.

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                  • #10
                    Thankyou Janet.

                    From what I have reseached so far they only became sweeps once Charles got to Luton prior to that he appears to have worked with horses, and according to Nan they still had a pony and trap when she was small.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "I think if you do suspect something, and you find more evidence to suggest it, then that does increase the probability even if it is not total proof"

                      Very true Benny, though problem is sometime you can read more into 'evidence' then is actually there, because you've set up a scenario in your mind, and maybe without even realising it your trying to make it fit that scenario. I think we have all done it, its human nature to want to find absolute answers, but unfortunately thats rarely the name of the game in genealogy.

                      Speaking from personal experience its extremelly dissapointing when you have a set scenario you think all your evidence fits, then months maybe years down the line something else comes along and blows it all out the water. My tree in the early days was full of assumptions, but over time has come to consist of ifs and maybes but very few definites, I've learned you can never be too critical with your own work, more still with that of others. Much better to put a scenario in your tree with your evidence but your misgivings too, then later have those misgivings prove true, than to ignore them, to set a probable down in stone as a definite, then look extremelly silly when it proves to be wrong years later! Learnt that the hard way unfortunately and wont be doing it again!

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                      • #12
                        Absolutely Ben, I just these days cover myself with pointing out in all instances this is the 'most likely scenario' but not the only possible one. Where gaps in knowledge exist I admit them, and I never make assumptions of absolutes. The way I view the evidence and the conclusions I draw from it will be different from others, thats true of all historical research, look at how many books have been written on second world war for example, all using similar or same sources but drawing often quite different conclusions from them. I recently spoke with a war veteran who has read hundreds of books on the war, on battles he actually fought in, and he reckons they are all wrong. The authors make mistakes and they then all source eachothers books and repeat them over and over until they become accepted fact, he was quite despondant about it.

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                        • #13
                          Interesting debate going on above, I totally agree with Richard until you have real proof that something is correct, then I feel we have a duty to declare our uncertainty. I am sure as far as I can be about the above family but I will go and check the points as shown above to pad out the facts. It's taken 30 years to get to this point and without the info all together on the net I think it would have taken that again to untangle.

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                          • #14
                            Yes, I would also agree with Richard and although I have much positive research, I also have many queries which I write down on my Family Tree Programme. I write copious notes where I have little arguments with myself and have come to some conclusions whilst writing. It is a detective story where I am constantly questioning myself and then solving some of the puzzles by querying the information that I already know or have somewhere in my files. This is what makes Family History so interesting.

                            Janet

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                            • #15
                              Sometimes chasing up a "probable" as if it were true can help you to find the evidence you need.

                              I did that with part of my CHRISTMAS tree. One of my Gx3-uncles has "Pafoot" as a middle name. I'd thought it must be a family name from further back. I knew his mother's maiden name was FOSTER, but she'd died in 1849, so I had only a vague idea of a DoB, tho' at least I knew she was born in Hants. I followed up what looked like a good candidate for her baptism in the IGI, found a set of siblings with the same parents, and then looked for a marriage. I found a likely marriage - and the wife's maiden name was PAFOOT! I found a sibling for her, and that info allowed me to find Wills on Documents Online - which named names and quoted relationships. It was enough to confirm what I'd deduced.

                              If I hadn't gone with my hunch, I wouldn't have found my way to another couple of generations further back.

                              Christine
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                              • #16
                                I have found that census places of birth can be unreliable - it depends on who is giving the information to the enumerator at the time, and how good their memory is. Quite often a father might forget whether they moved somewhere before or after the birth of a particular child, or if the wife returned to her parents or elsewhere to give birth, that be reported by the mother but not by the father. This is particularly true in families that moved around a lot. If you have other convincing evidence, you should not let the apparent discrepancy rule this person out. Much the same goes for ages in censuses too - these are often out by up to three years or so, in my experience.

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                                • #17
                                  One of my ancestors was b variously in Ilford (E of London) or Maidenhead (W of London)!

                                  I came to the conclusion that the enumerator hadn't always asked for a PoB, but had said "where are you from?" - in which case, Maidenhead was a sensible answer for where he grew up, rather than Barkingside, for where he was born.

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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