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Is this a painting?

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  • Is this a painting?

    I've got a set of 8 "pictures" (from the first two gaps I think there must've originally been 10) They are in an album of tissue like paper and each one is secured by a corner cut out of the tissue, rather like the old fashioned picture albums.

    They appear to be "painted" on some kind of fine celluloid and are as fragile as a butterfly's wing. The images are raised as if painted on and the colours bright and vibrant. All are Indian scenes, most are notated in English written in pencil, which in the main is so faded that it's difficult to read.

    I'm pretty certain that they probably belonged to my GGrandfather (b1840) who was in India whilst in the Army.

    I'd love to know how they were made but haven't got a clue as to how to even begin googling.

    Does anyone have any ideas please?


    Here's an example "Corn and Butter" The shadow in the midground is from the next image "grinning" through called "Ascetic"


    La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
    Chamfort

    The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

  • #2
    Can't help I'm afraid, Cherry, but I just wanted to say what lovely things to have

    I wonder if you could email it to an expert, the British Library maybe, for an opinion?

    Comment


    • #3
      What beautiful things to have. I've been googling to no avail. The V&A might have an idea though I could find nothing similar on their online resources.

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you sure it says Corn and Butter? Might be Cook and Butler.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you Georgette. Yes, they really are quite exquisite and I've had them tucked away for many a long year. I'd like to have them all framed together as a set but it might destroy their provenance if they're taken out of their original tissue album. On the other hand I can't just keep looking at them from time to time as they're so delicate and fragile

          I think I'll take up your suggestion of emailing them to say the British Library, thank you for the advice


          La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
          Chamfort

          The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
            Are you sure it says Corn and Butter? Might be Cook and Butler.
            I think Mary has a point. If I had to choose between the two suggestions just looking at that faded pencil text, I'd go for Cook & Butler - especially looking at that image.

            That one certainly looks rather like the kind of effect you get with painting on glass.

            Christine
            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jill on the A272 View Post
              What beautiful things to have. I've been googling to no avail. The V&A might have an idea though I could find nothing similar on their online resources.
              Spent ages googling Jill and have found zilch!

              Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
              Are you sure it says Corn and Butter? Might be Cook and Butler.
              I've looked at again Mary under an angelpoise lamp + magnifying lamp as before and you're right...it is Cook and Butler

              Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
              I think Mary has a point. If I had to choose between the two suggestions just looking at that faded pencil text, I'd go for Cook & Butler - especially looking at that image.

              That one certainly looks rather like the kind of effect you get with painting on glass.

              Christine
              I knew there was a reason I changed my avatar to that of a donkey Christine, yep it's definitely Cook and Butler!


              Here's another and there's no mistaking it says "Beggars"



              La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
              Chamfort

              The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

              Comment


              • #8
                It's more likely to be a natural material such as mica than man-made, if it's pre-1900. Celluloid was invented in the 1850s and I would think that a celluloid sheet of that age would have disintegrated chemically, even if it was kept wrapped up. It's a fairly close relative of nitrate cine film, which does disintegrate over time and is highly flammable.
                Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                Comment


                • #9
                  I wondered if it is glassine paper, but googling reveals that wasn't invented till 1905!

                  OC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you for that info Uncle John. There is one picture where there's some disintegration. Thinking of the properties of mica I think you're right.


                    La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
                    Chamfort

                    The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                      I wondered if it is glassine paper, but googling reveals that wasn't invented till 1905!

                      OC

                      BINGO!!!

                      Uncle John's got it, by jove he's got it!

                      Consevation of Indian Mica Paintings - Victoria and Albert Museum

                      Now what do I do with 'em, lol


                      La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
                      Chamfort

                      The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        arent they beautiful ?? you are lucky
                        I would certainly see about getting them expertly framed , before they disintergrate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          They are very beautiful - and look to be in extraordinary condition. I'd be inclined to ask for advice from the V&A since they seem to have done the practical research and found solutions.

                          You might need to check on the value of them and consider the insurance implications. Does the V&A have any provision for "permanent loans" if you feel that the care and security issues might be insurmountable for an ordinary individual, as distinct from an expert corporate body?

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It is nice to hit the bull's-eye once in a while. Has anyone noticed that the chief paper conservator can't spell Conservation!
                            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                              arent they beautiful ?? you are lucky
                              I would certainly see about getting them expertly framed , before they disintergrate.
                              They are even more beautiful in the "flesh" Val. I won't go rushing into things! I've had them for 32 years (they belonged to my Aunt, GGJohn's Granddaughter and when she died they passed to my Mum, her sister who knew to whom they had originally belonged but obviously not what they were (if all that makes sense!)

                              Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                              They are very beautiful - and look to be in extraordinary condition. I'd be inclined to ask for advice from the V&A since they seem to have done the practical research and found solutions.

                              You might need to check on the value of them and consider the insurance implications. Does the V&A have any provision for "permanent loans" if you feel that the care and security issues might be insurmountable for an ordinary individual, as distinct from an expert corporate body?

                              Christine
                              I will indeed ask for advice from the V&A Christine. There are several sites on the net of "posh" auction houses showing similar pictures that have been sold at auction but they all seem to be pay to view and for professionals only. Should they turn out to have any great intrinsic value I think I'd prefer for their beauty to be shared. (I can always have copies made and if any of my lot, now or in the future, want to know about them I can always put the details on the back of the frame, lol, lol )

                              Originally posted by Uncle John View Post
                              It is nice to hit the bull's-eye once in a while. Has anyone noticed that the chief paper conservator can't spell Conservation!
                              Thanks again for that Uncle John. I would still have been googling had you not mentioned mica. Yes, the first thing I noticed was that the Senior Paper Conservator couldn't spell conservation, perhaps it was the fault of his amenuensis?!!


                              La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
                              Chamfort

                              The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Cherry Tradewell View Post
                                ...
                                I will indeed ask for advice from the V&A Christine. There are several sites on the net of "posh" auction houses showing similar pictures that have been sold at auction but they all seem to be pay to view and for professionals only. Should they turn out to have any great intrinsic value I think I'd prefer for their beauty to be shared. (I can always have copies made and if any of my lot, now or in the future, want to know about them I can always put the details on the back of the frame, lol, lol )...
                                I did spot at least one with an actual price - but from a few years ago, so you can't be sure which way the prices would have moved since then.

                                I'm interested (i.e. pleased!) to see that you have a similar approach to the way I feel about such things. After clearing it with the relevant bit(s) of family, I've passed a few things over to Records Offices on permanent loan, feeling that we shouldn't have the monopoly on access, and may not have the facilities for keeping the items safe long-term. Permanent Loan allows the situation to be retrieved at a later date if necessary.

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                  I did spot at least one with an actual price - but from a few years ago, so you can't be sure which way the prices would have moved since then.

                                  I'm interested (i.e. pleased!) to see that you have a similar approach to the way I feel about such things. After clearing it with the relevant bit(s) of family, I've passed a few things over to Records Offices on permanent loan, feeling that we shouldn't have the monopoly on access, and may not have the facilities for keeping the items safe long-term. Permanent Loan allows the situation to be retrieved at a later date if necessary.

                                  Christine
                                  We obviously think along the same lines Christine. I've systematically been giving things away for years now! It gives me great joy to know that having had so much pleasure from whatever article it might be, there comes a time to pass it on to someone else. With a bit of luck, all I'll have left when I pop my clogs will be my birthday suit:D


                                  La plus perdue de toutes les journees est celle ou l'on n'a pas ri
                                  Chamfort

                                  The most completely wasted of all days are those on which we have not laughed

                                  Comment

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