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  • Niece/great niece

    Is it likely that a greatniece would be described on the 1861 census as just "niece"?

    5 yr old Frances Harriott Steel is so described staying with my ggg grandparents William & Mary Steel in Stedham, Sussex, their son John is also in the household. By 1871 she is with John and his wife Frances Steel in Greenwich described as daughter.

    If she's not John's dau then she must be Frances snr's. Frances snr's maiden name was Steel (have their marriage cert) and if Frances Harriott was Wm & Mary's gt niece then John & Frances snr are cousins. Does my reasoning hold water?

  • #2
    I would say, yes quite probably.

    My grandmothers sister is still alive and she always signs her Christmas cards from aunty daisy, even though she is my great aunt.

    She is also great great aunt to my daughters and great great great to my nieces little boy.

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    • #3
      Thanks Margaret. I've found Frances snr's family on the 1841, her father inconsiderately died just after the 1841 census so I don't know his d.o.b. or more than that he was born in Sussex.

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      • #4
        Hi Jill

        In our family too, our relationships are blurry. My children called the children of their cousins, "cousins" not first cousins once removed (its too confusing for a 5 year old). Aunty Olive was my grandfathers cousin, and all my great-uncles and aunts were just aunty and uncle. I would imagine they just said nieces and nephews - and some would not be bothered to be specific to the census enumerator.

        And you are my cousin too, or is it your OH ? who is the Harwood ?

        Di
        Diane
        Sydney Australia
        Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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        • #5
          I have a great nephew in 4xgreat granmothers household around 1861, and he is down as just nephew, I imagine it was very common.

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          • #6
            Diane you are my OH's cousin (his Sarah Harwood b1774 Sutton, Sussex dau of Henry b1733 & grand dau of John Harwood b1699 & Eliabeth Lockier, g granddau of John b1669 and mine too through my Edmund Harwood b1803 Sutton, son of thomas b1742, g son of Edward b1701, gg grandson of John b1669 (Johns in bold the same man)

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            • #7
              Five of my great-great aunts were still alive when I was a child. I called them all Auntie, as did my father, whose great-aunts they were.

              The census was not all that interested in the finer points of relationships - I think it was sufficient to know that people were related in some way.

              I am sure this is why "My first wife's first husband's step-grandchild" appeared on many a census as "Visitor" lol.

              OC

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              • #8
                I've got a Scottish death cert where the informant is down as "nephew" but I think it was really something like "husband of great-niece of wife", which wouldn't have fitted in the box.
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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                • #9
                  My inlaws keep refering to my OH's grandma as great grandma when talking to my children. I don't bother and stick with Grandma. My kids think they mean great as in that's a great picture. It's too confusing.
                  Kit

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                  • #10
                    I refer to all of my cousins of varying degrees 'cousin' with one exception - my mother's cousin who is 40 years older than me who is referred to as 'Uncle' because he was partly brought up by my grandmother after his mother died. All of my mother's aunts and uncle's, only one of whom is still alive, were always simply 'aunty' and 'uncle'. I think it's more usual for people not to bother with specifying the degree. Interestingly, my grandmother is also 'nan' to my sister's best friend's little girl In some cases, it can just be a courtesy title.

                    On a slight tangent, yesterday, when looking through some census records (1961, I believe) I found a page on which many people had first been listed with their relationship to head (i.e. sister, father-in-law) and then had the relationship crossed out and replaced with 'boarder'. I'm assuming that the relationships were true but the enumerator decided 'boarder' was better because they were all of age and working for a living, i.e. not dependent on the head.

                    Zoe

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                    • #11
                      I am puzzled. Both John's parents AND Grandparents were William and Marys.

                      John and Frances didn't marry until 1861 whereas Frances Harriett (apparently transcribed on Free BMD as Frances N) was born in 1854, the same year as John's sister Frances Emma was born.

                      Apparently there was Frances Steel b 1801, my 3GGmother,

                      The Frances Steel who was born c1834 and married John

                      Frances Emma Steel, John's Sister, b 1854

                      John Steel's possible daughter Frances Harriott, b also 1854. I think we need her Birth Certificate. I'll go halves with you.

                      and Fanny Steel, b 1870.
                      Last edited by Grampa Jim; 24-10-08, 16:27.
                      Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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                      • #12
                        Diane,

                        If you are descended from Edmund Harwood 1803, then you presumably are also descended from his wife Abigail Neal and therefore a distant cousin of mine too.

                        Jim
                        Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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                        • #13
                          Jim, I've been offsite so didn't see your post til now.

                          Frances Harriett Steel was born 1857/8 according to censuses of 1861/71/81(apology -I got it wrong on the gedcom I sent you, my error entirely)

                          The FreeBMD entry for Frances N Steel is in fact Sep 1854,Frances Emma Steel, Midhurst 2b 312

                          I can find no trace of Frances Harriett Steel in the GRO index for 1856/7/8 under Frances/Fanny or Steel/Steele, census says born Harting, Sussex so I've ordered her marriage cert to George Neville. I'll let you know the outcome.

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                          • #14
                            Jill,

                            Have you got John and Frances Steel's marriage certificate for 1861?
                            Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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                            • #15
                              Have emailed you.

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                              • #16
                                Thanks Jill,

                                the Steels have always been a somewhat mysterious Family to me. They are starting to make some sense now.
                                Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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                                • #17
                                  Jim, Harriett's marriage cert says her father is John Steel, labourer, so not sure how to explain the fact she is described as niece in John's parents' household, unless they were covering up the fact he had an illegitimate child, but then it would have been unusual for the father's parents to take the child in.

                                  I cannot find a GRO reference for her birth 1867/7 Harting Sussex. Maybe its one that didn't make it to the central government record.

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                                  • #18
                                    I think you are probably right with that interpretation,
                                    Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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