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  • Help very much needed please!

    Benjamin Miller, my 3xgreat grandad, a farrier, born 1840 Spitalfields. This is him on the 1841 census and 1851 census:


    1841 Census: Heneage Street, Christchurch Spitalfields


    Thomas Miller, 50, Shoemaker, Not born in County
    Elizabeth Miller, 45, Middlesex
    Sophia Miller, 20, Middlesex
    Thomas Miller, 8, Middlesex
    Benjamin Miller, 1, Middlesex

    -----------

    1851 Census: 8 Heneage Street, Christchurch Spitalfields


    Thomas Miller, head, mar. 61, Journeyman Shoemaker, Newington Middlesex
    Elizabeth Miller, wife, mar, 59, Pancras Middlesex
    Sophia Miller, dau in law, Widow, 27, Charwoman, London Spitalfields
    Thomas Miller, son, 17, Porter, London Spitalfelds
    Benjamin Miller, son, 10, London Spitalfields


    The IGI, shows his christening:

    BENJN. MILLER
    Birth: 02 JUN 1840
    Christening: 26 JUL 1840 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England
    Father: BENJN. MILLER Family
    Mother: SOPHIA

    I therefore took it that Sophia was his mother, and he should be grandson on 1851, and that his father Benjamin was a son to Thomas and Elizabeth, who died between 1840-1851.

    However I could never find a death cert for him, or marriage for him and Sophia, and I have Thomas and Elizabeths marriage in St Pancras 1816, and the baptisms of eight children to them at Christchurch Spitalfields first the year of their marriage to the youngest Thomas in 1833, who show son the census above. They never had a Benjamin baptised.

    Recently I have been in contact with my grandads cousin, the daughter of my late great uncle, and her husband who are also researching the family tree. I was told my late uncle , who has only fairly recently passed away aged 101, knew Benjamin (jr), his grandfather as a child in the first decade of the 1900's. He used to run errands for him, and one day he took his pension book to cash it for him. He noticed his name on there was Benjamin Bacon, and asked his grandad why. He told him because he'd lived with his mothers family as a child and this was their surname.

    Now armed with that we finally found a birth reg for him, Benjamin Bacon June Q 1840 Whitechapel Vol 2 Page 520. So seems he was actually registered Bacon too, despite being baptised Miller. Perhaps he therefore had to have his registered name on his pension?

    Anyway we came to the conclusion Sophia was probably maiden name Bacon, and unmarried to Ben Miller who is down as the father on baptism.

    ok well here goes..Recently here you good sorts were able to help me find Sophias (second?) marriage in 1856 to a John Tedderman, and track her on later censi. I sent off for this hoping it would confirm her maiden name was Bacon and give me her father. I also sent off for Benjamin Miller (jrs) marriage cert to see who he said his father was.

    not what I was expecting


    "March 31st 1856, John Tedderman, 26, bachelor, Bone Boiler, of 7 Pugh Row Mile End old Town, son of Lewis Tedderman, stone mason, married Sophia Miller, 29, spinster, of 9 Heneage Street, Spitalfields, dau of Thomas Miller, shoe maker"


    "October 28th, 1866, Benjamin Bacon Miller, bachelor, 26, farrier, Stepney, son of, Benjamin Bacon, carman, married Catherine Regan, full age, spinster, dau of William Regan, coal whipper"

    So according to that, Sophia was Thomas Millers natural daughter, had Benjamin out of wedlock with a Benjamin Bacon, registered him as Bacon, but baptised him with the unmarried couple both using her surname.

    But I'm still troubled by a couple of things...Sophia is not among the children baptised to Thomas and Elizabeth Miller at Chirstchurch Spitalfields 1816-1833, so that rings alarm bells for starters, and then why have they described her as daughter in law on the 1851?

    Funnily enough one of the two witnesses on Sophia Millers marriage in 1856 has exactly the same name as me! Sent shivers down me that did..I wonder if at some point in the future they invent time travel and I go back to sort this out with g-g-g-g granny for myself....

    Until that time though, (pmsl- need to stop watching the sci fi progs I think), I'm really quite stumped!! Would appreciate some advise on how to get any further, or comments on what the possible situations are.
    Last edited by Richard; 04-11-08, 12:09.

  • #2
    How do you know that the baptism you found is for YOUR Benjamin?

    I'd be inclined to get Benjamin Bacon's birth cert to see if a father is named on it and to have an address, which might tally with 1841 census.
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

    Comment


    • #3
      Having just discovered an ancestor registered in 1840 with his father's surname (and exactly the same thing happening with his illegitimate step brother!) I wonder whether a lot of women did this in the early days of civil registration, hoping to shame a man into marriage - and not succeeding!

      Is it possible that Sophia was illegitimate herself, struck up a relationship with one of Thomas Miller's sons who died, and subsquently drew a veil over the matter by pretending to be a daughter. Is there a Sophia shaped gap in the baptisms?

      I think you need Benjamin's birth certificate to see what she was saying then.
      Phoenix - with charred feathers
      Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

      Comment


      • #4
        Alternative baptism?

        BENJAMIN BACON
        Christening: 25 AUG 1839 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London,
        Age at Christening: 1
        Parents: BENJAMIN BACON & MARY ANN
        IGI batch # C040807
        ~ with love from Little Nell~
        Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

        Comment


        • #5
          If you haven't yet looked at the actual baptism, that would give you an address and highlight any ambiguity.
          Phoenix - with charred feathers
          Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Nell, suppose it was possible he was baptised to a Benjamin Bacon and Mary Ann, but then why is he living with Sophia Miller and that family from 1841 on? Are you saying perhaps they adopted him? Possible I suppose...

            The only Benjamin Bacon I can find, that would fit for a father in right area, on both death indexes, baptisms and census, is one born 1803 BENJAMIN PETER BACON - Male Christening: 25 DEC 1803 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England

            Thing is he is not a carman, but a silk manufacturer by looks of it! He does seem to be married to a Mary in 1841 though, then remarried to a Julia by 1851. However the three children on the 1841 census with him are still there on the 1851 plus his new children, so why would they 'adopt' out just Benjamin?

            I still tend to think Benjamin Miller is the right baptism, what with him being with a Sophia Miller in 1841, and the date of the baptism matches the quarter of the Benjamin Bacon Birth Registration in 1840.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Richard View Post
              But I'm still troubled by a couple of things...Sophia is not among the children baptised to Thomas and Elizabeth Miller at Chirstchurch Spitalfields 1816-1833, so that rings alarm bells for starters, and then why have they described her as daughter in law on the 1851?

              Have you checked the actual parish register for her baptism or are you just going by what it says on the IGI? Could she have been baptised somewhere else?

              As for her being "daughter in law" on the census, I have seen one or two similar entries where an unmarried daughter of the family with children of her own is down as married or widowed daughter in law, presumably just because it sounded more respectable and they didn't think to give her a different surname!

              Or is it possible that Thomas had two different wives named Elizabeth, and Sophia was the daughter of the second one from a previous relationship? That would make her Thomas's "daughter in law" because another meaning of that was step-daughter.
              KiteRunner

              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

              Comment


              • #8
                Reading through the thread again, I would definitely say get the Benjamin Bacon birth certificate to see what it says, anyway.
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                  Is it possible that Sophia was illegitimate herself, struck up a relationship with one of Thomas Miller's sons who died, and subsquently drew a veil over the matter by pretending to be a daughter. Is there a Sophia shaped gap in the baptisms?

                  I think you need Benjamin's birth certificate to see what she was saying then.
                  Hi Pheonix. This is the families baptisms at Christ church Spitalfields

                  Thomas Miller and Elizabeth

                  John Miller 1816
                  Henry Miller 1822
                  Harriot Miller 1824
                  Ann Miller 1827
                  Sarah Miller 1828
                  Maria Miller 1830
                  Louisa Susannah Miller 1832
                  Thomas Miller 1833

                  No Benjamin, no Sophia.

                  Sophia is also quite elastic with her age on the census and certs, earliest possible is 1821 (possibly even earlier it actually looks like 25 to me on the 1841 cencus image rather than 20 Ancestry has it as). Latest possible birth date is 1835, though that clearly far too late given the 1841 census. Prob born early 1820's I'd say.

                  The scenario about her striking up a relationship whilst pregant with one of the Miller sons is at least possible, though they've all disappeared by time of the census except 7 yr old Thomas...but its proving it!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KiteRunner View Post
                    Have you checked the actual parish register for her baptism or are you just going by what it says on the IGI? Could she have been baptised somewhere else?

                    As for her being "daughter in law" on the census, I have seen one or two similar entries where an unmarried daughter of the family with children of her own is down as married or widowed daughter in law, presumably just because it sounded more respectable and they didn't think to give her a different surname!

                    Or is it possible that Thomas had two different wives named Elizabeth, and Sophia was the daughter of the second one from a previous relationship? That would make her Thomas's "daughter in law" because another meaning of that was step-daughter.
                    Thanks Kite. No just going on the IGI, unfortunately not able to get down to the LMA (hoping these registers will be among the first batch up on Ancestry next year!! cross fingers).

                    That said Sophia gives her birth place as Spitalfields pretty consistently, and most of the local churches are covered on IGI. Thomas and Elizabeth baptise their first child after marriage in Chirsitchurch Spitalfields, and their last, so though its possible they chopped and changed in between and I'm missing some, doesn't actually seem all that likely to me. They seemed to have settled straight in Spitalfields and stayed put!

                    The scenario you put foward of them calling her 'dau in law' as she was an unmarried mother still living at home with them does seem most likely to me, certainly I'd say so if I could find a baptism of hers which confirms what she says on her wedding cert, that they were her parents. But of course frsutratingly I can't....

                    Will need to get Benjamin Bacons 1840 birth cert now I'm sure, just was so looking foward to todays certs clearing it all up...was not expecting to have to punish my credit card again quite so soon..back to waiting in anticipation..hey ho!
                    Last edited by Richard; 21-10-08, 23:10.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Can anyone find Benjamin Bacon, carman on any census? If I could identify him, may help, I'm having no luck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh, now you say that Sophia could be older than we thought, maybe there is only one Elizabeth but Sophia was born before Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage?
                        KiteRunner

                        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Possible, but I do not think it too likely, especially with the 1841 date being rounded, she tended to make herself younger yes, but I'd say she was in all likelyhood born around 1822-24.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Are you going to order Benjamin's birth certificate and see what the father's details are on there?
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Richard View Post

                              Sophia is also quite elastic with her age on the census and certs, earliest possible is 1821 (possibly even earlier it actually looks like 25 to me on the 1841 cencus image rather than 20 Ancestry has it as). Latest possible birth date is 1835, though that clearly far too late given the 1841 census. Prob born early 1820's I'd say.
                              Just to chip in the ages for everyone over 15 on the 1841 census were rounded down so if you were 24 it will say 20 if you were 29 it would say 25.

                              HTH

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Ye, I do not think really can go any further without it by the look of it. Horrible feeling it will not shed much more light, but you never know, might just.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  By the way, what was Elizabeth's maiden name?
                                  KiteRunner

                                  Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                  (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    But same time Peppie, my other 4x gran was 23 married with child , and she is rounded down to 15! I consequently dont have much faith in the 1841 ages!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Miller, Thomas
                                      b. 1790
                                      Newington
                                      d. 1869
                                      Whitechapel
                                      m. Unwin, Elizabeth

                                      12 Aug 1816
                                      Saint Mary, Newington, Surrey,


                                      I made an error earlier, they were actually married in hubbys parish not brides.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Can I ask how you know that is the right marriage for your Thomas and Elizabeth? I just noticed that all their children were born before civil registration, so no mother's maiden name from birth certificates.
                                        KiteRunner

                                        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                        Comment

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